How to find whether an arc is clockwise or counter-clockwise in DXF file?

Anonymous

How to find whether an arc is clockwise or counter-clockwise in DXF file?

Anonymous
Not applicable

As you all know DXF file can be opened in text viewer also. In that, ENTITIES section consists of details about the drawing. In particular I want information about the entity ARC. If an arc is drawn in the AutoCAD its data will be generated in DXF file which will be in text format. But it consists of ARC radius, centre points, start angle and end angles. It does not give whether the arc is clockwise or counter-clockwise. How to determine it please somebody help me. I have attached a screenshot also.

 

-Vinay

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imadHabash
Mentor
Mentor

HI,

 

i just want to remind that in AutoCAD Arcs are drawn in a counterclockwise direction by default. and by holding down the Ctrl key as you drag to draw in a clockwise direction. hope that help . 

 

Regards,

Imad Habash

EESignature

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tramber
Advisor
Advisor

The way it is drawn doesn't matter.

Forever, the arc is written in mathematical direction (counterclockwise) in any DXF file.

The only way to know would be to know the previous attached (point to point) line or object in the database.

Maybe a use of polyline instead of arc and lines (I guess)

Sorry for you

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Kent1Cooper
Consultant
Consultant

All Arcs are counterclockwise.  It doesn't matter in which direction or under which options it was drawn -- the data for it is always stored with the curve of it progressing counterclockwise from the stored start angle to the end angle.

Kent Cooper, AIA
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leeminardi
Mentor
Mentor

I'd like to add that DXF does not store how the arc was drawn.  It stores just enough information to recreate the arc.  For example, if you drew an arc using 3 points along its circumference in either  clockwise or counterclockwise direction, DXF will not store the 3 points you used but will store the 3D center point of the arc and its radius.  If the arc lies on the XY plane then the normal vector will assumed to be 0,0,1.  If the arc does not lie parallel to the XY plane then the normal vector will be include (DXF codes 210, 220, 230) and the x axis used for measuring the angle will be defined via the rules of the arbitrary axis algortithm.  https://www.autodesk.com/techpubs/autocad/acadr14/dxf/arbitrary_axis_algorithm_al_u05_c.htm

lee.minardi

BeKirra
Advisor
Advisor

It is interesting.

IMO the following is a true statement:

Arcs are drawn in a counterclockwise direction in AutoCAD by default.

 

However if checking an existing arc I found something different. Here is my experiment.

 

I drawn an arc starting at lower-right corner and ending at upper-left corner in 1st quadrant on "X-Y" plane.

Then use "3drotate" command rotate it 180 degrees by selecting "Y" axis as rotation axis.

Now the arc is in 2nd quadrant.

When I use "pEdit" command to check the vertexes of the arc (actually it is converted to a polyline segment), I found the arc now is in clockwise direction.

 

Here is the DFX data.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Arc in 1st quadrant

 

ARC
  5
8D28
330
1E
100
AcDbEntity
  8
0
100
AcDbCircle
 10
684.0251252695512
 20
201.2135767275527
 30
0.0
 40
190.9610975440021
100
AcDbArc
 50
11.72219891656158
 51
83.73151582609727
  0

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Arc in 2nd quadrant before using "pEdit"

 

ARC
  5
8D28
330
1E
100
AcDbEntity
  8
0
100
AcDbCircle
 10
-684.0251252695512
 20
201.2135767275527
 30
-0.0000000000001264
 40
190.9610975440021
210
-0.0000000000000001
220
-0.0000000000000004
230
-1.0
100
AcDbArc
 50
11.72219891656071
 51
83.73151582609114
  0

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

It is also noticeable that start angle and end angle of 2 arcs are about the same shown above.

The group codes of extrusion direction "210", "220" and "230" are only shown in data of the 2nd quadrant arc. This may verify a clockwise arc.

Please mark "Accept as Solution" and "Like" if my reply resolves the issue and it will help when others need helps.
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A circle is the locus of a cursor, starting and ending at the same point on a plane in model space or in layout such that its distance from a given coordinates (X,Y) is always constant.
X² + Y² = C²

leeminardi
Mentor
Mentor

@BeKirra states "IMO the following is a true statement:

Arcs are drawn in a counterclockwise direction in AutoCAD by default.

 

However if checking an existing arc I found something different. Here is my experiment...."

 

It is true that AutoCAD draws arcs in a counterclockwise direction but it could appear to a user that it is clockwise if the user is looking at the arc from the opposite direction!  AutoCAD uses a right hand rule for defining arc direction.  That is, if the thumb of your right hand points it the positive direction of the arc's z axis (its normal vector), the curled fingers of the right hand define the positive arc angle direction.  Thus if you are looking a the top view and the arc lies on the XY plane, the z direction is point to you and positive angles are measure in a CCW direction.  However, if you were to look at the same arc from the bottom view the Z axis is now pointing away from you and clockwise becomes the apparent positive direction although the arcs true angle direction is CCW when looking down (in the opposite direction) of the normal vector.

 

In your example, the second arc has a normal pointing in the negative Z direction as indicated by the DXF codes 210, 220, 230 which are 0,0,-1.  The angles are the same as the first arc (DXF codes 50 and 51) because the arc's angles still use a positive counter clockwise direction  but you are viewing it from the opposite direction.

 

The right hand rule is necessary to maintain a consistency for arcs that can freely rotated in 3D. 

 

lee.minardi
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Kent1Cooper
Consultant
Consultant

@BeKirra wrote:

 

....

Arcs are drawn in a counterclockwise direction in AutoCAD by default.

.... 

I drawn an arc starting at lower-right corner and ending at upper-left corner in 1st quadrant on "X-Y" plane.

... "3drotate" ... 180 degrees ... "Y" axis as rotation axis.

Now the arc is in 2nd quadrant.

When I use "pEdit" command to check the vertexes of the arc (actually it is converted to a polyline segment), I found the arc now is in clockwise direction.

 

....

Arc in 2nd quadrant before using "pEdit"

....
210
-0.0000000000000001
220
-0.0000000000000004
230
-1.0

....

The group codes of extrusion direction "210", "220" and "230" are only shown in data of the 2nd quadrant arc. This may verify a clockwise arc.


I would word that first sentence quoted above differently -- the information about them is always stored as though  they were drawn counterclockwise, but they can be drawn  clockwise in several ways, at least in terms of the process of defining their geometry in a drawing.

 

The Polyline equivalent/conversion may "look" clockwise from your  point of view [assuming you haven't changed that since you drew the initial Arc], but not from its own.  Note the  -1.0  Z coordinate [code 230] of the extrusion direction for the second Arc -- that's downward.  Looking from "your" underneath  [which is its own point of view because of that extrusion direction], it's still counterclockwise.  The 210/220/230 codes are present only for the second one because when they are not  present, the extrusion direction is 0,0,(+)1 -- see the DXF Reference for an Arc and note the "optional" under codes 210/220/230 and the description under 210 that 0,0,1 is assumed if not present.

Kent Cooper, AIA

Anonymous
Not applicable

Thank you for your response. Actually what you have sais is correct. But group codes 210,220 and 230 are optional as per the DXF reference manual. It may be present or may not be present. I got another method to find out whether it is clockwise or anti-clockwise. At first you have to calculate bulge of the arc. It is nothing but the amount of curvature. if you got it as negative then arc is clockwise if it is positive then it is anti-clockwise. If it is a Poly Line ARC then DXF file itself will give you the value of the bulge. If it is a normal ARC that you have drawn then you need to calculate the value of the bulge using the formula. You can find the explanation and related formulae  in the below link.

http://www.afralisp.net/archive/lisp/Bulges1.htm

 

 

Thank You

-Vinay

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Kent1Cooper
Consultant
Consultant

@Anonymous wrote:

.... But group codes 210,220 and 230 are optional as per the DXF reference manual. It may be present or may not be present

  ::: KC -- And if they are  not present, then the extrusion direction  is 0,0,1 -- their absence doesn't leave anything indeterminate.

I got another method to find out whether it is clockwise or anti-clockwise. .... If it is a normal ARC that you have drawn then you need to calculate the value of the bulge using the formula.

  ::: KC -- If it is a normal Arc, its direction is counterclockwise, always -- there is no other possibility.  If you want to know whether it's clockwise  from the perspective of the World Coordinate System, as in your example after 3DRotating one, you don't need to calculate anything.  Just look at its entity data --

(entget (car (entsel "\nSelect the Arc: ")))

will return a list that includes (210 0.0 0.0 -1.0) with the negative Z component.  But from its own point of view, it's still counterclockwise.

 

....

 

Kent Cooper, AIA

BeKirra
Advisor
Advisor

@leeminardi wrote:

...

However, if you were to look at the same arc from the bottom view the Z axis is now pointing away from you and clockwise becomes the apparent positive direction although the arcs true angle direction is CCW when looking down (in the opposite direction) of the normal vector.

...

The right hand rule

...


I know what you mean. However you probably misunderstood my reply to OP.

 

Let me restate OP's question:

"How to find whether an arc is clockwise or counter-clockwise in DXF file?"

There are 2 categories of arc in this question.

1. arc that user newly drawn

2. arc which is existing.

I focused on the latter and the example given in my post #6 is a situation that user may experience.

 

HTH

Please mark "Accept as Solution" and "Like" if my reply resolves the issue and it will help when others need helps.
= ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ =
A circle is the locus of a cursor, starting and ending at the same point on a plane in model space or in layout such that its distance from a given coordinates (X,Y) is always constant.
X² + Y² = C²
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BeKirra
Advisor
Advisor

In my example, the only purpose that using "pEdit" on the drawing is to find 1st and 2nd vertex on the "arc", both in original position and rotated position.

And thanks for the link.

Please mark "Accept as Solution" and "Like" if my reply resolves the issue and it will help when others need helps.
= ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ = ♪ = ♫ =
A circle is the locus of a cursor, starting and ending at the same point on a plane in model space or in layout such that its distance from a given coordinates (X,Y) is always constant.
X² + Y² = C²

Anonymous
Not applicable

I agree with you. But one does draw the arc in clockwise direction then what will be the situation? If I draw the arc in clockwise direction also group code did not appear in the DXF file. It may appear if you draw the arc using AutoCAD. But if you draw the arc using other software like AutoCAD then it will not appear for clockwise direction also. Since I am developing a software to read the DXF file and display the drawing I have to consider both clockwise and anti-clockwise. One other thing, I am considering only 2D drawings and not 3D drawings.

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cadffm
Consultant
Consultant
Accepted solution

@Anonymous

 

Once again: Any software can write and interpret (read) DXF data as it pleases.
(if you only read in your own data and you never share these files with others/other software, you can also give an object CIRCLE the look like a rectangle and the definition of a polyline)
That's your thing - but not useful.

But there is only one "correct" definition for the DXF (per version) and that comes from the company AutoDesk.
These should be used as a benchmark, everyone should do so, and thus the probability of success
is the highest in terms of trouble-free data exchange.

DXF is not documented to 100% but for these simple things it is more than enought.


"But one does draw the arc in clockwise direction then what will be the situation? "
You can draw an ARC (in a Coordinatesystem parallel to WCS / with the same direction)
in all kind you want. Left to right from roof to bottom, the DXF-definition is
to store the ARC-data anti/counter-clockwise.

"If I draw the arc in clockwise direction also group code did not appear in the DXF file."
Because you don't understand coordinatesystems / what the normal vector is (210,220,230) ? http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NormalVector.html

 


"Since I am developing a software to read the DXF file and display"
"the drawing I have to consider both clockwise and anti-clockwise."
For WRITING a DXF (blank ascii text, without an DXF-wrapper/programming interface) you have to consider both,
because you have to calculate the User-input data for the ARC to counterclockwise informations for writing to the DXF file.
If you write DXF ARC-Data in clockwise order, the ARC appears in other Software wrong, because all well DXF-import interfaces assume that the data is counterclockwise.


"One other thing, I am considering only 2D drawings and not 3D drawings."
It is possible, perfect and simple for you, BUT if you import a DXF which is not wrote by your program, you have to consider the 3.dimension

and so you have consider the normal 210,220,230 by import DXF-Datas too.

It is what it is.

Sebastian

Kent1Cooper
Consultant
Consultant

@Anonymous wrote:

.... one does draw the arc in clockwise direction then what will be the situation?.....


The situation will be the same as if it were drawn in some other way -- that the entity data stored about that Arc  will be a center point, a radius, starting and ending angles from the center to the ends, always  with the "start" and "end" defined as proceeding in a counterclockwise direction, and an extrusion direction [and Layer, and other properties that all entity types share].  How the Arc was drawn  is completely irrelevant after  it has been drawn.  And consider this:  what if you drew a Circle, and then used Trim or Break to remove part of it?  The resulting Arc wasn't drawn as an Arc, so how could one say in which "direction" it was drawn?  But its entity data will be stored in the same way.

Kent Cooper, AIA

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We use Twitter to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Twitter. Ads are based on both Twitter data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Twitter has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Twitter to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Twitter Privacy Policy
Facebook
We use Facebook to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Facebook. Ads are based on both Facebook data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Facebook has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Facebook to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Facebook Privacy Policy
LinkedIn
We use LinkedIn to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by LinkedIn. Ads are based on both LinkedIn data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that LinkedIn has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to LinkedIn to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. LinkedIn Privacy Policy
Yahoo! Japan
We use Yahoo! Japan to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Yahoo! Japan. Ads are based on both Yahoo! Japan data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Yahoo! Japan has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Yahoo! Japan to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Yahoo! Japan Privacy Policy
Naver
We use Naver to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Naver. Ads are based on both Naver data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Naver has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Naver to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Naver Privacy Policy
Quantcast
We use Quantcast to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Quantcast. Ads are based on both Quantcast data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Quantcast has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Quantcast to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Quantcast Privacy Policy
Call Tracking
We use Call Tracking to provide customized phone numbers for our campaigns. This gives you faster access to our agents and helps us more accurately evaluate our performance. We may collect data about your behavior on our sites based on the phone number provided. Call Tracking Privacy Policy
Wunderkind
We use Wunderkind to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Wunderkind. Ads are based on both Wunderkind data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Wunderkind has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Wunderkind to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Wunderkind Privacy Policy
ADC Media
We use ADC Media to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by ADC Media. Ads are based on both ADC Media data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that ADC Media has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to ADC Media to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. ADC Media Privacy Policy
AgrantSEM
We use AgrantSEM to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by AgrantSEM. Ads are based on both AgrantSEM data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that AgrantSEM has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to AgrantSEM to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. AgrantSEM Privacy Policy
Bidtellect
We use Bidtellect to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bidtellect. Ads are based on both Bidtellect data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bidtellect has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bidtellect to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bidtellect Privacy Policy
Bing
We use Bing to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bing. Ads are based on both Bing data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bing has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bing to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bing Privacy Policy
G2Crowd
We use G2Crowd to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by G2Crowd. Ads are based on both G2Crowd data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that G2Crowd has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to G2Crowd to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. G2Crowd Privacy Policy
NMPI Display
We use NMPI Display to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by NMPI Display. Ads are based on both NMPI Display data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that NMPI Display has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to NMPI Display to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. NMPI Display Privacy Policy
VK
We use VK to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by VK. Ads are based on both VK data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that VK has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to VK to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. VK Privacy Policy
Adobe Target
We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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