A few questions for ACADe users who work in the industrial control panel field: do you use 3D software to produce cabinet and component layouts that incorporate wire routing and wire length calculations?
I've given Inventor Cable & Harness a good go but have concluded that its not productive to use for control panels with wire duct, din rail.
straight answer is yes
You have discovered the fundamental flaw in inventor to ACADE and it’s the same flaw that Solidworks and Solidworks electrical has and it’s this
The inventor to ACADE functionality is what a mechanical engineer thinks what an electrical engineer wants and that’s flawed thinking
I have spent the last year researching 3D panel offerings from the major ECAD players
I started off with extensive knowledge of Eplan Pro panel which I based my URS (user requirement specification) on with an added wish list of in a perfect world wouldn’t it be great that my software could do this
With that in mind I then devised a scoring system for my requirements based on 4 factors
Needless to say inventor /Acade didn’t do well the winner for various reasons and it was multiple small things was See electrical 3D
And some of those reasons were
Fairly good reply Jim but there is the other side
Over the past 10 years most of my clients want 3d models for various reasons
You also need to consider if you have a 3d model
You can export the wire data into a wire cutting machine which will cut and number and crimp ends of wires automatically
You can export all your back plate/door details into a CNC machine which will then cut out your doors and back plate
You can also get the model into simulation software for heat and vibration if required
It’s the beginning of having a true Ecad system and this is what industry 4.0 is all about big data being swap between different systems
Its not just 2d schematics nowadays its what you do with the data
Which Autodesk seems to ignore to their own peril
Valuable post ccad2509, I've read it several times as I have just embarked on assessing the 3D capabilities of Zuken E3, Solidworks Electrical, Eplan, WScad and SEE Electrical+ 3D. Our medium size workshop is investing in a Komax wire looming machine so with us moving into the era of I4.0, integration of the CAD software with a Komax and Steinhauer machines are necessary to stay at the front of the panel building business. ACADe fits into the integration jigsaw, although that's more by historical necessity than choice in my organisation.
If you were willing to share your 3D package comparison that would be gratefully received, but I understand it's time consuming and therefore valuable data you have collected and not for sharing on the internet! Thanks again for the post.
Hi jseefdrumr, I agree with your comment and ACADe's outdated catalogue info, I didn't expect modifying the catalogue and symbols would be such the effort its turned out to be. With Inventor you only get a handful of 3D electrical components provided so at least there's no pretence of a comprehensive library.
3D is a natural progression for us, but we do a fair bit of OEM panel building which often has quantities in the 10-50s so the investment in 3D time will hopefully pay back.
Hello Andrew
I won’t give you my results for two reasons
1 as you pointed out
2 because it’s skewed to my situation which is far different from you, I have 4 ECAD systems and I’m an independent contractor using all 4 (and I had in mind is there a possibility of only learning one 3-D panel design package which could utilise data from all my ECAD systems which was the winner with See electrical 3-D)
Whereas you’re a production facility which will settle on one system So,
what I have done is post the questions I used to work out what to buy as a guide for you it will probably ask questions you have not thought of at present What you need to consider is putting a line under your Acade and starting with a new system
I’m not saying that you do that, but you may need to think that way since your considering getting CNC machines etc.
you need to think about how you get the data from your model to your machine one ECAD vendor already has all the interfaces for all the popular CNC machines but as always you must consider the various costs
Interfaces to CNC machines generally come as a paid extra you may even have in-house talent to write the code and that can reduce your capital spend And then there’s the usual dance of figuring out what to buy and all the BS the sales rep throws at you to convince there the biggest bestist shiniest toy
If you want more personnel advice PM me
1) SECTION 1 3D MODEL IMPORT
a) Can you filter what’s imported?
b) Can you change colour etc. once imported?
c) What editing functionality of the imported model are available
d) is their feature tree recognition?
e) Part imported is it a Surface or solid?
f) Can you unite individual parts together?
2) SECTION 2 PARTS FEATURES
a) Can you define an exclusion zone in 3d around a component for heat/EMC considerations?
b) Can you define heat dissipation values for components?
3) SECTION 3 PLACEMENT OF DEVICES
a) How do you distinguish between items mounted on a back plate and items mounted on a din rail?
b) How easy is it to define new mounting surfaces on the fly?
c) if you have a relay with a relay base, Example Omron relay G7SA-5A1B-24DC with relay base P7SA-14F-ND. DC24 do you place each item individually or do you have an assembly function where one model covers both items
4) SECTION 4 TERMINALS
a) how do you place terminals one by one?
b) How do you place terminals by terminal block?
c) Does the 3d application talk to Wiedmuller/Wago/Phoenix terminal applications
5) SECTION 5 TRUNKING AND DIN RAIL
a) How do you successfully place these items?
b) Can you edit the length after placement?
c) Can you extract the trunking/rail length and populate a BOM (bill of materials) with these length values?
d) Can you calculate fill levels in the trunking?
6) SECTION 6 PLACEMENT OF NON-ELECTRICAL ITEMS
a) Placement of nuts and bolts
b) Placement of cable glands
c) Placement of earth bars / earth connections
d) Placement of warning labels
e) Placement of cable clips
7) SECTION 7 - wires
a) How do you define connection points on a Component?
b) Can you AutoRoute wires in the completed panel
c) Can you AutoRoute cables in the completed panel
d) Can you manually modify an auto routed wire?
e) Can you manually modify an auto routed cable?
f) how do you define connections types on each end of a wire/cable each end of a wire may have one of the following connection types (each end can be different)?
i) Undefined
ii) Screw clamp connection single
iii) Screw clamp connection double
iv) Cage clamp connection
v) Insulation-displacement connection
vi) Screw-type connection (Ring or U cable lug)
vii) Ferrule connection (cable lug)
viii) Double Ferrule Connection (two wires into one ferrule)
ix) Plug connection
x) Solder connection
xi) Bare screen
g) How do you account for the bend radius on a wire/cable?
h) Can you define a filter so defined wires/cables travel down trunking with the same filter criteria?
i) Can you route a cable through a gland?
j) Can you route a wire/cable through a P-Clip?
k) Can wires and cables be routes through flexible tube l) How do you route wires / cables through thin air i.e. jumping a gap between a door and trunking mounted on a sidewall?
8) SECTION 8 2D VIEWS DERIVED FROM THE 3-D MODEL
a) How do you define a 2-d view of the 3d model?
b) Can you define wire frame/ solid / shaded views?
c) Can you switch items on and off in a view?
d) Can 2_d view settings be saved and exported
e) How easy is it to dimension a view?
f) Can you switch of/on individual wire/cable routes?
g) How does the system check for changes in the 3d model /update the 2-D view?
h) Can you set up the view so you can all items in the view are faded down to for example 50% of colour brightness but have one item highlighted in full colour (i.e. show a single wire running through a panel)
i) Do wires show in the 2-D view
j) Can you switch off wires and cables in the 2-D view to create an individual wire/cable run
k) Can you export to STP? l) Can you export to DWG?
9) SECTION 9 - EXTRAS
a) Can you export a completed parts list?
b) Can you calculate total lengths of each type of wire and cable?
c) What other export functions are available?
d) What engineering standards does the system comply to IEC/EN
e) What type of database is running in the background?
10) Scenario
24vdc wire from plc to output terminals and 24vdc wire from plc via a barrier to ATEX trunking how are you going to set up the trunking so each wire routes correctly through the trunking
11) Scenario
Two control cabinets side by side how do you display only 1 cabinet in the 2d model? the two cabinets have cables /wires running between them how do you distinguish between cable/wire runs
Hi ccad2509,
Thanks for posting the questions you used for your selection process, they contain many possible functions and issues I hadn't considered such as heat dissipation or routing through to another bayed enclosure.
Did you install and learn the 3D packages you shortlisted to get definitive answers to your questions? I ask as trying to get detailed questions answered by sales reps hasn't been too successful for me. Getting from the stock sales answer of "yes we can export a DXF for CNC machines" to confirming that the DXF is in the format that our CNC machine requires seems to cause sales reps to rapidly lose interest. Because of this I've now accepted that only by installing and learning/testing the software will I be able to verify the export interface.
I've just received a trial licence for SEE Electrical 3D Panel so will be attempting to import from ACADe into it in the near future. I may PM you to ask your advice on this package, for example the standard of IGE+XAO's 3D component library.
I know it has been almost 3 years since this thread was started, but stumbled across it this week. I too am researching cad software for electrical panel design. But driven by the desire for more efficient manufacturing tools such as Eplan Smart wiring or SEE electrical. I am interested in knowing how you all are now doing or choices you made.
CCAD2509, are you still using SEE Electrical?
Andrew, what direction did you go?
Does anyone know of any other software tools similar to Eplan Smart Wiring?
Regards
yes im still using see electrical 3d panel plus
i have linked it to eplan/wscad and acade
for the price you pay its puches well above its wieght and has a killer feature for me which leaves eplan in the dust
it has the ability for you to turn a group of wires in the 3d modle into acable and that data is written back into the see electrical schematics
its not perfect but when your paying 1/5 the price of an eplan equivalnt you wont be disappointed witht he product
it also imports IGEs files as standard and links to cnc machines as standard not a £1000 per module extra like eplan charges you
heres a video linking see electrical to eplan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61TLcCeDC4E
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