Issue with Layers and Wire Layers

[pqphillips]

Okay, I am in the process of remaking my template file and just finished setting up all my wire layers.

However, when I draw a wire and give it a wire number, the WIRENO, WIREFIXED, and WIRECOPY layers are being automatically added to the wire layer list. When I go to Create/Edit Wire Type and highlight them (either individually or in a group) the Remove Layer button is greyed out, making it impossible to remove these layers from the Wire List. This is true even if I purge the drawing of all blocks and delete everything in the drawing.

I tried renaming the wire layers and reinserting a wire number to fix it, but all it did was add WIRENO, WIREFIXED, and WIRECOPY again. I tried deleting the layers themselves using the Layer Management Tool, and it got rid of them, but when I did the wire numbers again, they came right back.

This is highly frustrating and I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure it all out.

Can anyone assist?

[dougmcalexander]

Don't delete those layers.  They aren't wires.  They are used to assign a wire number block as being normal, fixed, or a copy of the wire number.  When you copy a wire number it assigns it to layer WIRECOPY, when you click Fixed to lock in a wire number, it moves the wire number to layer WIREFIXED.  I usually set layer WIREFIXED to color red and layer WIRENO (normal wire numbers) to green.  I use color 84 for WIRECOPY.  It makes wire number copies appear as a faint green.  

The software only creates one wire type layer on install, named WIRES.  If you wish to have separate layers, you add them via the Create/Edit Wire Type utility.

Follow my steps carefully and in order.  This is the method we use in the classes I teach so I know it works. Be especially careful with step 11. As you insert various drawing elements, new layers will be added to the drawing by AutoCAD® Electrical. Be sure and insert a 3-phase component symbol, a location box, and wire numbers, so you can use the Layer Properties interface to preset their colors and line types.  Step 11 covers this in detail.  Be very careful not to purge drawings anymore with AutoCAD Purge.  Use the Purge option in Project Utilities.  It is a safe purge and will only purge layers that AutoCAD Electrical can safely function without.  Try to avoid AutoCAD commands except to draw shapes and create attributes (ATTDEF).  I usually just create one attribute and copy/paste/rename to make all the others.

If you need further help, consider purchasing a support plan.  I offer phone, e-mail, or video conferencing levels of support and can assist you remotely with training, implementation, or even development support.  I have created many templkates for customers who wanted the confidence of knowing that their template is healthy.  As you have learned the template is at the heart of a properly functioning AutoCAD Electrical.

[pqphillips]

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@dougmcalexander wrote:

Don't delete those layers.  They aren't wires.  They are used to assign a wire number block as being normal, fixed, or a copy of the wire number.  When you copy a wire number it assigns it to layer WIRECOPY, when you click Fixed to lock in a wire number, it moves the wire number to layer WIREFIXED.  I usually set layer WIREFIXED to color red and layer WIRENO (normal wire numbers) to green.  I use color 84 for WIRECOPY.  It makes wire number copies appear as a faint green.  

The software only creates one wire type layer on install, named WIRES.  If you wish to have separate layers, you add them via the Create/Edit Wire Type utility.

Follow my steps carefully and in order.  This is the method we use in the classes I teach so I know it works. Be especially careful with step 11. As you insert various drawing elements, new layers will be added to the drawing by AutoCAD® Electrical. Be sure and insert a 3-phase component symbol, a location box, and wire numbers, so you can use the Layer Properties interface to preset their colors and line types.  Step 11 covers this in detail.  Be very careful not to purge drawings anymore with AutoCAD Purge.  Use the Purge option in Project Utilities.  It is a safe purge and will only purge layers that AutoCAD Electrical can safely function without.  Try to avoid AutoCAD commands except to draw shapes and create attributes (ATTDEF).  I usually just create one attribute and copy/paste/rename to make all the others.

If you need further help, consider purchasing a support plan.  I offer phone, e-mail, or video conferencing levels of support and can assist you remotely with training, implementation, or even development support.  I have created many templkates for customers who wanted the confidence of knowing that their template is healthy.  As you have learned the template is at the heart of a properly functioning AutoCAD Electrical.

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I know those layers aren't wire layers. I'm very keenly aware of this.

The problem is that when those layers (WIRENO, WIREFIXED, and WIRECOPY) are automatically created via inserting wire numbers, those three layers are also automatically getting added to the Wire Layer listing and I cannot remove them at all.

I guess I'll just delete everything I've done and start over. Again.

[dougmcalexander]

That would indicate the existance of a WD_M block that has WIRE* in the list of layers to treat as a wire.  If you ever used the utility to update your library WD_M block from the one in your drawing, then the stock WD_M could contain the values from your drawing that are causing problems, tus perpetuating the problem.  

Remember, I saw two WD_M blocks in your drawing, one nested and one not.  You might have to use ATTMODE=2 to view the WD_M block and be sure that WIRE* is not in the list of layers to be treated as a wire.  

Note that WIRES* is a valid entry in the list because the default wire layer that the software uses is WIRES.  Don't delete WIRES*, only delete WIRE*.  So open the library that your project is pointed to and check the WD_M.dwg file to be sure that the list doesn't include WIRE*.  Then when you insert this block into a fresh drawing it will not cause problems.  In fact, here is a better idea. Tell me which library you are using and I will send you a fresh WD_M.dwg file to replace yours, in case yours has been altered.

[pqphillips]

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@dougmcalexander wrote:

That would indicate the existance of a WD_M block that has WIRE* in the list of layers to treat as a wire.  If you ever used the utility to update your library WD_M block from the one in your drawing, then the stock WD_M could contain the values from your drawing that are causing problems, tus perpetuating the problem.  

Remember, I saw two WD_M blocks in your drawing, one nested and one not.  You might have to use ATTMODE=2 to view the WD_M block and be sure that WIRE* is not in the list of layers to be treated as a wire.  

Note that WIRES* is a valid entry in the list because the default wire layer that the software uses is WIRES.  Don't delete WIRES*, only delete WIRE*.  So open the library that your project is pointed to and check the WD_M.dwg file to be sure that the list doesn't include WIRE*.  Then when you insert this block into a fresh drawing it will not cause problems.  In fact, here is a better idea. Tell me which library you are using and I will send you a fresh WD_M.dwg file to replace yours, in case yours has been altered.

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Okay, something's still hinky.

I went back through and literally recreated everything from scratch using your method, and while I no longer have issues with the wire number layers getting made into actual wire layers, I do have a new issue.

Once I got it all finished, I created a new drawing using the new template file. Just to be sure, I went in and set ATTMODE to 2 to see what the wire numbers are. Everything was perfectly in place, and this is what showed up as wire layers:

#1 *,#10*,#12*,#14*,#16*,#18*,#2 *,#3 *,#4 *,#5 *,#6 *,#8 *,1(0*,111*,2(0*,262*,3(0*,313*,373*,4(0*,444*,535*,646*,777*,BUS*,CAB*,DIR*,ETH*,FIB*,JUM*,SHI*,VEN*,WIRES *,_MU*,WIRES*,WIRE *,FWI*,DLO*,FDL*

The ones in red showed up on their own and were never designated as wire layers by me.

_MU* of course refers to the _MULTI_WIRE layer, which is a necessary layer for Fan In/Fan Out operations, and I can just remove it from the wire layers while leaving it as a layer.

WIRES* is apparently a redundant entry to WIRES * (I edited the WIRES layer to be named WIRES - INTERNAL and added WIRES - INTERCONNECT and WIRES - FIELD). Leaving this alone could be okay, I suppose, as there are no other layers (wire layers or otherwise) with the word WIRES in it.

The rest of them were mysteriously brought in and have no corresponding wire layers either in the template or in the drawing.

For the most part, this is a non-issue, but the Multi_Wire one is problematic. I need to figure out how to keep the _MU* from being added automatically when I create a drawing, otherwise I will have to manually remove that layer every time.

Any clue on how to figure this out?

[dougmcalexander]

I noticed all those #1 *,#10*,#12*,#14*, etc. layers in the first file you sent.  Remember I pointed that out.  It's strange, but things like that don’t appear by accident.  Perhaps a predecessor created some wire layers at one time with such names.  Each time you create a new wire type in the Create/Edit Wire Type dialog, a new layer gets added to the list, usually the first 3 characters and an asterisk.

And _MU shouldn't be in the list either.  The _MULTI_WIRE layer is not intended to be treated as a wire.  It is graphics only, but it will accept a cable marker, thus it auto-trims.  _MULTI_WIRE has a special purpose that the software knows how to handle.

The only sure way to get this done without issues is to start from scratch with a clean drawing, and a healthy WD_M.dwg file in your active library folder.  But you probably don’t want to recreate your company logo, title block grid, etc.  So try exploding your existing template down to the lowest level and use ATTMODE=2 to reveal any hidden attributes that look like they are associated with WD_M block.  Be sure that when you create the border from scratch, and you are prompted to insert the WD_M block, that it is a fresh one from Autodesk, not one that has been updated from one of your drawings.  You didn't say which library you are using, but I will attach a fresh W_M block from my JIC125 library.  Replace the one in your active library with this one.

But you still need to break down your border template to the lowest level and delete/purge any additional WD_M blocks that you find.

[pqphillips]

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@dougmcalexander wrote:

I noticed all those #1 *,#10*,#12*,#14*, etc. layers in the first file you sent.  Remember I pointed that out.  It's strange, but things like that don’t appear by accident.  Perhaps a predecessor created some wire layers at one time with such names.  Each time you create a new wire type in the Create/Edit Wire Type dialog, a new layer gets added to the list, usually the first 3 characters and an asterisk.

And _MU shouldn't be in the list either.  The _MULTI_WIRE layer is not intended to be treated as a wire.  It is graphics only, but it will accept a cable marker, thus it auto-trims.  _MULTI_WIRE has a special purpose that the software knows how to handle.

The only sure way to get this done without issues is to start from scratch with a clean drawing, and a healthy WD_M.dwg file in your active library folder.  But you probably don’t want to recreate your company logo, title block grid, etc.  So try exploding your existing template down to the lowest level and use ATTMODE=2 to reveal any hidden attributes that look like they are associated with WD_M block.  Be sure that when you create the border from scratch, and you are prompted to insert the WD_M block, that it is a fresh one from Autodesk, not one that has been updated from one of your drawings.  You didn't say which library you are using, but I will attach a fresh W_M block from my JIC125 library.  Replace the one in your active library with this one.

But you still need to break down your border template to the lowest level and delete/purge any additional WD_M blocks that you find.

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The #1 *,#2 *, etc are actual wire layers I created. The only reason I can think of that there were multiples of each type is that there were multiple instances of wire layers starting with those prefixes (#1 DLO - INTERCONNECT, #1 TYPE P - FIELD, etc), and as you said, every time a layer is created, a new instance is added to that list. I've since gone through and deleted the extras, though, so that's not an issue anymore.

I'm aware the _MU* shouldn't be in the list, but it got added anyway when I created a drawing. It appears in the WD_M for the drawing, but not the template, so something is going wrong at the drawing creation stage.

I did start from scratch, using a the baseline DWG file for the border. I checked to see if a WD_M attribute was hidden there, and there wasn't one. I deleted the existing WD_TB attribute and redid the Title Block Setup and everything else prescribed by your 12 Step Plan. The only hiccup I found was when I started a new drawing using the acad.dwt template and inserted my title block, then went through the whole rigamarole of setting up layers and everything, a REFEDIT check showed that I had a nested WD_M attribute. I then deleted the nested one and edited the primary to eliminate the extra entries.

After that, it was all smooth sailing, until I created a new drawing from the newly created .DWT file.

The only thing I can think of is what you said... that I have a damaged WD_M file. Thanks for sending the JIC125 file, but what I actually need is the NFPA file, as that's the standard we use here.

[dougmcalexander]

So you are certain that there is no WD_M block in the base level drawing?  There should be nothing in there but a border and title block attributes, and the WD_TB attributes.  The WD_TB should be the only thing in the base drawing related to AutoCAD Electrical.  So, when you insert the base drawing into the blank drawing you just created from acad.dwt, check immediately, before you click Drawing Properties, to see if there is a WD_M block.  ATTMODE=2 will again reveal if there is. And if there is, it came in from the base drawing.  But you will have to get it out of the base drawing, becauseif you try to delete the nested WD_M block it will delete the entire base drawing.

It's nice to find someone using the more up-to-date library.  I will attach the WD_M block from 2016.  I guessed JIC125 because that is still what I find most people using.  The NFPA library was introduced in release Autodesk 2013.  It is a copy of the ANSI Y32.2 symbols used in the JIC125 library but with updated tag letters, based upon NFPA-79 Annex-E.  There are also a few new symbols added, like Form-C contacts, Solid-state Relay, L.E.D, Heaters, DC Power Supplies, and Ground Bus Bar.  There is however one error you need to be aware of in that library.  The tag letters for time delay relays should be TR, not TD.  I made regret that I somehow missed those files when I made that library. I have attached a zip file that contains corrected symbols.  Or you can put a wd_fam.dat file in your project folder with a line that reads as follows:

TD,TR

The file can be created with NotePad. Save as wd_fam.dat.

Just to clarify, ATTMODE=2 is forcing the software to reveal attributes that are set to be hidden.  The WD_M block has no graphics, only hidden attributes.  So you have to reveal the attributes to find the block.  Then when you click on any attribute and press delete, you are actually deleting the entire block, which is what you want to do.  I just want to be sure of the terminology in case someone else reads this thread in the future.

Of course set ATTMODE=1 before you save as a template.

[pqphillips]

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@dougmcalexander wrote:

So you are certain that there is no WD_M block in the base level drawing?  There should be nothing in there but a border and title block attributes, and the WD_TB attributes.  The WD_TB should be the only thing in the base drawing related to AutoCAD Electrical.  So, when you insert the base drawing into the blank drawing you just created from acad.dwt, check immediately, before you click Drawing Properties, to see if there is a WD_M block.  ATTMODE=2 will again reveal if there is. And if there is, it came in from the base drawing.  But you will have to get it out of the base drawing, becauseif you try to delete the nested WD_M block it will delete the entire base drawing.

It's nice to find someone using the more up-to-date library.  I will attach the WD_M block from 2016.  I guessed JIC125 because that is still what I find most people using.  The NFPA library was introduced in release Autodesk 2013.  It is a copy of the ANSI Y32.2 symbols used in the JIC125 library but with updated tag letters, based upon NFPA-79 Annex-E.  There are also a few new symbols added, like Form-C contacts, Solid-state Relay, L.E.D, Heaters, DC Power Supplies, and Ground Bus Bar.  There is however one error you need to be aware of in that library.  The tag letters for time delay relays should be TR, not TD.  I made regret that I somehow missed those files when I made that library. I have attached a zip file that contains corrected symbols.  Or you can put a wd_fam.dat file in your project folder with a line that reads as follows:

TD,TR

The file can be created with NotePad. Save as wd_fam.dat.

Just to clarify, ATTMODE=2 is forcing the software to reveal attributes that are set to be hidden.  The WD_M block has no graphics, only hidden attributes.  So you have to reveal the attributes to find the block.  Then when you click on any attribute and press delete, you are actually deleting the entire block, which is what you want to do.  I just want to be sure of the terminology in case someone else reads this thread in the future.

Of course set ATTMODE=1 before you save as a template.

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I am 100% certain that the only things in the base level drawing are simply the geometry of the title block, the attributes for the title block, and the WD_TB attribute. I double and triple checked using both ATTMODE=2 and through REFEDIT both in the base drawing and in the created drawing from acad.dwt. There is no WD_M attribute there.

 I discovered through judicious research that for all intents and purposes, JIC125 doesn't exist as a standalone standard anymore and had been absorbed into NFPA, so I made the unilateral decision to switch us over to NFPA standards. It caused us a bit of consternation (of course), but it has saved our butts on more than one occasion.

Thank you for the fresh WD_M file. Here's to hoping that it actually fixes the problem.

[pqphillips]

Well, it looks like it partly solved the issue.

All the previous extra entries have disappeared, but the _MU* still gets added to the Wire Layers List upon drawing creation. I can confirm that it is not a wire layer in the .dwt file, and it becomes one when a drawing is created from that template.

Also, a new entry (INT*) gets added upon drawing creation and I cannot figure out where it's coming from at all. There is no wire layer that starts with those three layers, nor is there a regular layer. I checked both the DWT and DWG files.

There are no extraneous WD_M blocks. I even went so far as to rid my computer of any extra DEFAULT.WDW files from previous installations just in case that was the source.

So where the heck are they coming from?

EDIT: Removing the _MULTI_WIRE layer from the Wire Layers using the Create/Edit Wire Layers toolbox removed both the _MU* and INT* from the WD_M block, but restored the previous look with the repetitive entries (#1 *, #1 *, #1 *, etc). My guess is that it rebuilt it from the ground up and did so correctly this time, but counted every wire layer created. I don't think there would be a problem with having the repetitive entries, but if there would be any, please let me know.

[pqphillips]

Narrowed the problem down even further. Now I can get it to not add the Multi_Wire layer to the wire layers. Unfortunately, it doesn't help with the WD_M block, as it still adds the _MU* and INT* entry to the WIRELAYS attribute.

Clicking on the Create/Edit Wire Layers tool, selecting any point in there, and clicking "OK" will get rid of the INT* entry, but the _MU* entry remains.

I could remove it manually, but I shouldn't have to go through this with every drawing I create.

There HAS to be an issue somewhere along the line that I'm just not seeing.

[pqphillips]

Okay, so I figured out what the problem is, but what I cannot figure out how to resolve it.

The issue is that for some reason, when I create a new drawing in the project, the WD_M block is pulling in not only the specified wire layers from the template I created, but also the preset wire layers from a previous standard.

I have gone through every thing I can think of to find where it's pulling from, but I cannot find it at all.

I've purged and reset the WD_M block. I rebuilt everything from the ground up, from remaking the title block from scratch on a fresh drawing to creating an all new template with every wire layer created from scratch to starting a new project without copying settings from another. The only thing I HAVEN'T done is reinstall the program from scratch.

I cannot find where this erroneous information is coming from and I'm at my wits end.

[pqphillips]

Well, the only solution I've found for this is actually just a workaround.

Since I can't seem to stop Electrical from automatically adding the _MULTI_WIRE layer as a wire layer, I created a completely different non-wire layer to use for Fan In/Out connections, went into the Project Manager Properties, got to the Styles tab, removed _MULTI_WIRE from the Fan In/Out Layer List, and added the new layer to it instead.

[dougmcalexander]

You could use settings compare and make your project properties match your drawing properties. But manually removing it is fine too, since you only had one to do.

[pqphillips]

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@dougmcalexander wrote:
You could use settings compare and make your project properties match your drawing properties. But manually removing it is fine too, since you only had one to do.

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And I won't have to worry about it anymore because all the changes are on my template file and my project template, so it'll affect all future projects.

[dougmcalexander]

Yes, I try to keep project properties synchronized with my template drawing properties. You can have variances in drawing properties when required for a particular style of drawing but I try as much as possible to keep them matched up.