Location of Beam Marks

[HarryHighpants]

I'm trying to get all beams to have their marks on the to face only, at the north or west end as appropriate.

What I'm getting at the moment is a seemingly random mark location.

Does anyone know if there is a way to tell AS where to put the marks?

Thanks

[muleman1]

We struggle with same need. Hopefully someone will direct us

[Anonymous]

hi,

dont get what you want, what kind of marks do you mean? 

[HarryHighpants]

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@Anonymous wrote:

hi,

dont get what you want, what kind of marks do you mean? 

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Hi gvm.

I mean something to let the erector know which way to install the beams.

There doesn't seem to be any correlation between the orientation mark on the fabrication drawing and the ones that appear on the site general arrangement (the small triangle enclosed by the circle).

[Anonymous]

hi,

correct wht you are telling, thers is no connection with the marks. not handy.

For working on site you can avoid mistakes by using different connections on each end from a beam, yes i agree it should not be the way but.......

I use it quite often with beams with bracings . bracing plates are often different.

good luck

[FCort]

Hi,

It is important a very clear indicator of piece mark in GA erection drawings.

Many times the connections are the same in both ends of a beam. So it is important the location of the piece mark in a member.
Normally for beams or girders we follow the LEFT end mark standard rule. The mark will be in the left (horizontal beam) or bottom end (vertical beam) in a plan view erection framing drawing.

The fabrication drawing should be done with this left end to the left side of the beam shop drawing. And the fabricator should put the mark also in the left side of the beam.

[muleman1]

This is what we want to to do. Is there a setting  somewhere to label "LEFT end mark"?

[HarryHighpants]

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@FCort wrote:
Hi,

It is important a very clear indicator of piece mark in GA erection drawings.

Many times the connections are the same in both ends of a beam. So it is important the location of the piece mark in a member.
Normally for beams or girders we follow the LEFT end mark standard rule. The mark will be in the left (horizontal beam) or bottom end (vertical beam) in a plan view erection framing drawing.

The fabrication drawing should be done with this left end to the left side of the beam shop drawing. And the fabricator should put the mark also in the left side of the beam.

---

How do I know which side of the beam is 'left'?

Also, how does this work with columns?

[FCort]

@muleman1: In Ver 2015.1; For erection framing plan; as far as I know, there is no way to show by default the piece mark in the “left” end of a beam. You have to drag manually one by one (time consuming). The worst part is that if you have to update the erection drawing, all manual moved labels will be messed up.

To set left end in fabrication drawings see picture below.

I hope AS version 2017 has an option to keep labels location in the place moved by the user.

@HarryHighpants : In a GA framing plan view (erection drawing), the mark will be in the left (of horizontal beam or diagonal) and bottom end (of vertical beams).

Columns is different you mark the face "A" north and the bottom end will be the "left" side.  

See related info:

http://www.graitec.com/en/forum_post.asp?software=2&category=14&topic=1269

[HarryHighpants]

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FCort wrote:

@HarryHighpants : In a GA framing plan view (erection drawing), the mark will be in the left (of horizontal beam or diagonal) and bottom end (of vertical beams).

Columns is different you mark the face "A" north and the bottom end will be the "left" side.  

See related info:

http://www.graitec.com/en/forum_post.asp?software=2&category=14&topic=1269

---

Thanks for your reply, but the linked thread you supplied has only one response, and from what I see it completely misses the point of the OP.

Anyway,

Let's say for example I have a beam and the front view of the shop detail drawing has the triangle icon in the top left.

I then go to the model and change the detailing direction for the beam. Update the shop drawing and re-open it. The beam is now flipped end-to-end, but the triangle is still in the top left.

I then look at my site framing plan, and the triangle position has not updated to the other end of the beam like it should have.

[FCort]

I have never flipped a beam in the model, so. I don't have experience with that issue. Probably someone from Autodesk can help you.

Did you force update the framing plan to see if the triangle change ?

[HarryHighpants]

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@FCort wrote:
I have never flipped a beam in the model, so. I don't have experience with that issue. Probably someone from Autodesk can help you.

Did you force update the framing plan to see if the triangle change ?

---

Yes, I tried that, no luck. I also tried recreating the framing plan - no difference.

Hopefully one of the Autodesk gurus can shed some light on this important issue.

Beams that are installed wrong on site can cost the builder $$ and we all know that this can come back to the detailer in the form of back-charges.

[yurikim]

Hi @HarryHighpants

Could you share your screenshot? Also if you require further investigation, please give me a sign. I will contact you through a support case so we can dive in.

Also this is general information on how to use orientation marks. Please review this:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/advance-steel/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2016/ENU...

Please let me know how it goes.

[ChristianBlei]

Hi,

As an addition:

I think there is a misunderstanding what the compass is.

Basically it is a local coordinate system that the user defines for a project and that gets shown in the assembly and detail drawings. By defining NSWE directions in the world ucs xy plane- the origin is of no importance- and showing the compass  for a view and also for a detail, the orientation of a part in real world is readable. Important is not where the compass is, its location - that is only layout -, but how it is rotated in relation to the view respective the detail. Changing the deatiling direction 180°, the compass should get rotated 180°. Of course the compass is a 3D Object and bares 3D information and gets shown in 2D information, so there might be 2 views neccessary to get this direction information across.

Obviously this is a different concept than what is asked for in the american steel industry. There the relation of detailing orientation (assembly drawing versus detail drawing) is needed. In terms of data that exists that is retrievable. But it is a different story. If this is not already asked for as a new idea, post it there.  

HTH,

Christian Blei

[HarryHighpants]

@yurikim and @ChristianBlei

Thanks for your quick replies.

I played around with it as much as time has allowed. In the end, the safest way is to use explicit compass marks on the shop details (north, south, east, west).

The drawback with this is the fabricator must etch 2 things on the beam: the compass orientation PLUS the member name.

The left-end of beam concept is common in the US. Here in Australia a popular method is to put the beam marks on the top flange at the west end (or north), and all column marks on the north face. This seems the simplest way.

May be one for the idea station like you said.

[ChristianBlei · Accepted solution]

Hi,

the fabricator could use the information provided with the compass to mark the parts according to the rules of the local market.

But of course this takes additional time in the workshop and bears the risk of mistakes.

It should go to idea station. A better localisation of marking for the various markets. I will create a post there.

BR,

Christian Blei

[FCort]

Hi,
Having clearly defined the rules for place shipping mark it is very important (Mark location in framing plans and in the fabrication details), it will save time and avoid mistakes when installing the members.
Thank you in advance for a quick fix related to this issue.

[AleckGiles]

Hi,

No orientation marks will appear on any drawings until you place a compass symbol in the model. This will trigger a North arrow in GA drawings (depending on style) so the north direction important for that but it has little to do with the orientation marks.

Then you must produce the Assembly drawings before the GAs. The assembly drawings will always draw a beam in a given orientation. There is a system Default called Drawing Presentation > General > Orientation of members on a detail drawing. This influences which way round the front view goes. For example in the standard UK install this is set to Start Point on Right hand side. (This default could be overridden inside the drawing style itself.) So regardless of the compass direction or how the beam is drawn in the model, the first point of the beam will be on the right of the drawing. Orientation marks are ALWAYS placed at the top left of the front view in an assembly drawing. In this case that makes it the beam END.

Then you can create GA drawings. Depending on the style they can include orientation symbols for the beams (usually these appy to plan views only). Combining the thoughts about assemblies above the symbols on the beams will therefore appear at the end of each beam - not the north or the west or whatever. So if some beams (identical both ends) are modelled west to east and other identical beams are modelled east to west, the first will have the symbol in the east end while the latter will have the symbols on the west end. In each case this corresponds to the left end on the assembly drawing.

If you use the tool to Define Assembly Detailing Direction to change the front view of the beam the symbol will still be at the top left of the new front view. So if the beams ends swapped on the assembly drawing the symbol is now at the other end of the beam (e.g. the Start). Update the assembly drawing first then update the GA drawing (even if it does not say Update Required) and the symbols should move accordingly. They do in my tests. The GA always has to be done AFTER the assemblies so AS can work out where the symbols should go correctly.

[HarryHighpants]

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@AleckGiles wrote:

Hi,

No orientation marks will appear on any drawings until you place a compass symbol in the model. This will trigger a North arrow in GA drawings (depending on style) so the north direction important for that but it has little to do with the orientation marks.

Then you must produce the Assembly drawings before the GAs. The assembly drawings will always draw a beam in a given orientation. There is a system Default called Drawing Presentation > General > Orientation of members on a detail drawing. This influences which way round the front view goes. For example in the standard UK install this is set to Start Point on Right hand side. (This default could be overridden inside the drawing style itself.) So regardless of the compass direction or how the beam is drawn in the model, the first point of the beam will be on the right of the drawing. Orientation marks are ALWAYS placed at the top left of the front view in an assembly drawing. In this case that makes it the beam END.

Then you can create GA drawings. Depending on the style they can include orientation symbols for the beams (usually these appy to plan views only). Combining the thoughts about assemblies above the symbols on the beams will therefore appear at the end of each beam - not the north or the west or whatever. So if some beams (identical both ends) are modelled west to east and other identical beams are modelled east to west, the first will have the symbol in the east end while the latter will have the symbols on the west end. In each case this corresponds to the left end on the assembly drawing.

If you use the tool to Define Assembly Detailing Direction to change the front view of the beam the symbol will still be at the top left of the new front view. So if the beams ends swapped on the assembly drawing the symbol is now at the other end of the beam (e.g. the Start). Update the assembly drawing first then update the GA drawing (even if it does not say Update Required) and the symbols should move accordingly. They do in my tests. The GA always has to be done AFTER the assemblies so AS can work out where the symbols should go correctly.

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That was my understanding as well. I created the camera GA framing plan after the beam assembly (shop) drawing. But it stubbornly keeps the symbol at the wrong end on the framing plan.

That's why I've arrived at the conclusion that the 'safest' way to handle it is through explicit orientation arrows on the assembly (shop) drawings - not the symbol with the triangle thing.

I'll try it again on the next project just to see how it behaves.

[Adrian.Mangan]

3 years later but still helpful.