Change grade of A325 bolts from 10.9 to ASTM A325

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi,

I'm trying to change the bolt grade of A325 from grade 10.9 to ASTM A325.

I had tried changing the 10.9 under material column in AS management tools/Table editor/AstorBase/SetBolts. But this do not work.

Your help is much appreciated.

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi,

I'm trying to change the bolt grade of A325 from grade 10.9 to ASTM A325.

I had tried changing the 10.9 under material column in AS management tools/Table editor/AstorBase/SetBolts. But this do not work.

Your help is much appreciated.

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Why are the bolt grades10.9 for A307, A325 and A490? It's not consistent with the bolt name. If this were just equivalent grades. It should atleast be 4.6, 8.8 and 10.9 respectively.

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Why are the bolt grades10.9 for A307, A325 and A490? It's not consistent with the bolt name. If this were just equivalent grades. It should atleast be 4.6, 8.8 and 10.9 respectively.

[muleman1]

We hope you find answer so we can change ours too. maybe @Kirk_bailey 

[muleman1]

We hope you find answer so we can change ours too. maybe @Kirk_bailey 

[Anonymous]

Did you add "ASTM A325" to the StrengthClass table?  It may not recognize that material if not.

[Anonymous]

Did you add "ASTM A325" to the StrengthClass table?  It may not recognize that material if not.

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Thanks Paul.

I had tried this but it  didn't work.

Once I've selected the material under parameters, the bolt data becomes empty as shown on the screenshot.

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Thanks Paul.

I had tried this but it  didn't work.

Once I've selected the material under parameters, the bolt data becomes empty as shown on the screenshot.

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

The temporary fix I've done at the moment is changed the 10.9 under StrengthClass to "As noted".

I prefer not showing a wrong grade on the drawing MTO and BOM list. The bolt material is already shown on the name anyways. This saved me time from manually editing the grade. Refer screenshot.

I still would like a proper fix to this problem.

Thanks you.

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

The temporary fix I've done at the moment is changed the 10.9 under StrengthClass to "As noted".

I prefer not showing a wrong grade on the drawing MTO and BOM list. The bolt material is already shown on the name anyways. This saved me time from manually editing the grade. Refer screenshot.

I still would like a proper fix to this problem.

Thanks you.

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Thank you for using Advance Steel Forum 🙂

As you might already know, a "bolt" in Advance Steel is actually a "set" of "Bolt + Nut + Washer" which is / must be included in the "family" defined by:

1. Standard
2. Grade (or bolt material)
3. Set
4. Diameter

In the moment you define a new Grade, actually you get a completely new "family" of bolts.

This is the reason why the tables became empty when you choose a new material: you need to define the members of the new family:

- new bolts

- new set of bolts

- new rules for automatic length calculation

If you want to replace the material "10.9" with a different material, you would need to alter several tables, not only one.

However, I would NOT recommend to do that.

Practically, you will delete some bolts that are coming with the standard AS installation.

I would highly recommend to ADD new bolts / bolt sets / bolt "family". They will be your bolts, they will be migrated to the new version(s), all good.

Indeed, you might spend more time at this moment - once. But then you should be "trouble free" further.

You could use the existing bolts as reference - or for Copy/Paste - for much of the configuration.

You might find useful this webinar (maybe you know it already):

• 02. Customizing Bolts, Anchors and Shear Studs using Advance Steel 2017

Best regards,
Emy

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Thank you for using Advance Steel Forum 🙂

As you might already know, a "bolt" in Advance Steel is actually a "set" of "Bolt + Nut + Washer" which is / must be included in the "family" defined by:

1. Standard
2. Grade (or bolt material)
3. Set
4. Diameter

In the moment you define a new Grade, actually you get a completely new "family" of bolts.

This is the reason why the tables became empty when you choose a new material: you need to define the members of the new family:

- new bolts

- new set of bolts

- new rules for automatic length calculation

If you want to replace the material "10.9" with a different material, you would need to alter several tables, not only one.

However, I would NOT recommend to do that.

Practically, you will delete some bolts that are coming with the standard AS installation.

I would highly recommend to ADD new bolts / bolt sets / bolt "family". They will be your bolts, they will be migrated to the new version(s), all good.

Indeed, you might spend more time at this moment - once. But then you should be "trouble free" further.

You could use the existing bolts as reference - or for Copy/Paste - for much of the configuration.

You might find useful this webinar (maybe you know it already):

• 02. Customizing Bolts, Anchors and Shear Studs using Advance Steel 2017

Best regards,
Emy

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Thanks for the response Emy. Appreciate it.

Im actually not trying to creating a new bolt style. Im trying to correct the database supplied in AS. A325 bolts and grade 10.9 are not the same. This also applies to A307 and A490 bolts.

What you are suggesting from my understanding is redoing the entire database of bolts for these standards.

I did try doing this and it was a mission to do one standard and one bolt diameter set. This is assuming I can input every value 100% accurately. It's not like I can copy paste in management tool like in Excel.

Is there any easier way of correcting the database.

Regards,
Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Thanks for the response Emy. Appreciate it.

Im actually not trying to creating a new bolt style. Im trying to correct the database supplied in AS. A325 bolts and grade 10.9 are not the same. This also applies to A307 and A490 bolts.

What you are suggesting from my understanding is redoing the entire database of bolts for these standards.

I did try doing this and it was a mission to do one standard and one bolt diameter set. This is assuming I can input every value 100% accurately. It's not like I can copy paste in management tool like in Excel.

Is there any easier way of correcting the database.

Regards,
Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

In addition to my previous response.

Autodesk needs to correct the database as it has impact on the joint design feature. The calculation results will be erroneous.

They can keep changing to bolt type/standard to A307 or A325, but the result will always be base on a 10.9 (similar to A490) which is a higher grade.

You can very this with your engineers at Autodesk.

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

In addition to my previous response.

Autodesk needs to correct the database as it has impact on the joint design feature. The calculation results will be erroneous.

They can keep changing to bolt type/standard to A307 or A325, but the result will always be base on a 10.9 (similar to A490) which is a higher grade.

You can very this with your engineers at Autodesk.

Regards,

Joseph

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi Joseph,

Yes, I suggest to add new bolts, not to delete the standards installation bolts.

I understand you want a duplicate of the entire bolt standard family "A325", to have the grade "ASTM A325" instead of "A325".

Here is what I have done now:

- I used AS 2017 version

- I exported the entire A325 family to a MDB database

- Then open database with MS Access --> it contains all tables related to these bolts

- Table "StrengthClass" --> here it was the grade "10.9"

--> Replace this one with a new grade: Key (internal name) = "A325" and RunName = "ASTM 325"

- Open all other tables and everywhere you see "10.9" replace them with "A325"

So at this moment you have a new bolt family - identical, but with a different grade

- Back in MT - Bolts --> import the bolts --> then use the button "Apply"

That's it.

Please see attached the database for your tests.

You can import it both in AS 2017 and AS 2018 versions.

(Please make a backup of your existing AstorBase database prior import 🙂 )

Please let me know how it works on your side and if this is what you want.

Best regards,
Emy

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi Joseph,

Yes, I suggest to add new bolts, not to delete the standards installation bolts.

I understand you want a duplicate of the entire bolt standard family "A325", to have the grade "ASTM A325" instead of "A325".

Here is what I have done now:

- I used AS 2017 version

- I exported the entire A325 family to a MDB database

- Then open database with MS Access --> it contains all tables related to these bolts

- Table "StrengthClass" --> here it was the grade "10.9"

--> Replace this one with a new grade: Key (internal name) = "A325" and RunName = "ASTM 325"

- Open all other tables and everywhere you see "10.9" replace them with "A325"

So at this moment you have a new bolt family - identical, but with a different grade

- Back in MT - Bolts --> import the bolts --> then use the button "Apply"

That's it.

Please see attached the database for your tests.

You can import it both in AS 2017 and AS 2018 versions.

(Please make a backup of your existing AstorBase database prior import 🙂 )

Please let me know how it works on your side and if this is what you want.

Best regards,
Emy

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi Emy. Thanks for you for your prompt response.

I've tried two procedure and listed the result fyi.

PROCEDURE 1:

a. Go to MT/Bolts and import file you sent me and apply change. Note there is an existing A325 bolt on the list.

Result:

     1. When I select A325 and go to Parameters under Grade. Grade still shows 10.9. But I can select ASTM A325 and the bolt properties will still be there which is good. But when I click apply I reverts to 10.9 which is not good. Same case if I duplicate. I cannot make the ASTM A325 fix.

     2. When I go to the model connection (e.g. shear plate), I have two "default" grades which is 10.9 and ASTM A325. Which is good because I can select ASTM A325 and it will correct the BOM list and drawing MTO.

    3. It is also worth noting that under joint design. The material/grade ASTM A325 do not get recognize. Hence, bolt tensile strength is ZERO. Not good.

PROCEDURE 2:

a. Delete current A325 bolt under MT/Bolts.

b. Import file you sent and apply.

Result:

     1. When I select A325 and go to Parameters under Grade. No more 10.9. Only ASTM A325 value is showing. Which is good.

     2.  In the model connection (e.g. shear plate), it only shows ASTM A325 which is good. When I use the joint design, the grade used was for 10.9 which incorrect.

     3. When I run the BOM list, material grade is still 10.9. Again this is unconservative for people using this feature.

Your solution is giving mix results.

It is also worth noting that the grade of the washer and nut are not ASTM A325.

I'm just pointing that I'm not trying to create a new bolt. I'm just trying to correct the default bolt database.

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi Emy. Thanks for you for your prompt response.

I've tried two procedure and listed the result fyi.

PROCEDURE 1:

a. Go to MT/Bolts and import file you sent me and apply change. Note there is an existing A325 bolt on the list.

Result:

     1. When I select A325 and go to Parameters under Grade. Grade still shows 10.9. But I can select ASTM A325 and the bolt properties will still be there which is good. But when I click apply I reverts to 10.9 which is not good. Same case if I duplicate. I cannot make the ASTM A325 fix.

     2. When I go to the model connection (e.g. shear plate), I have two "default" grades which is 10.9 and ASTM A325. Which is good because I can select ASTM A325 and it will correct the BOM list and drawing MTO.

    3. It is also worth noting that under joint design. The material/grade ASTM A325 do not get recognize. Hence, bolt tensile strength is ZERO. Not good.

PROCEDURE 2:

a. Delete current A325 bolt under MT/Bolts.

b. Import file you sent and apply.

Result:

     1. When I select A325 and go to Parameters under Grade. No more 10.9. Only ASTM A325 value is showing. Which is good.

     2.  In the model connection (e.g. shear plate), it only shows ASTM A325 which is good. When I use the joint design, the grade used was for 10.9 which incorrect.

     3. When I run the BOM list, material grade is still 10.9. Again this is unconservative for people using this feature.

Your solution is giving mix results.

It is also worth noting that the grade of the washer and nut are not ASTM A325.

I'm just pointing that I'm not trying to create a new bolt. I'm just trying to correct the default bolt database.

Regards,

Joseph

[muleman1]

@joseph_hermogenes_042016 do you make the "as noted" change just in the 'strengthclass' data base or multiple places? This seems the most logical and time efficient'fix', other than joint design calcs still wrong.  We are simple minded and just dont understand why AS would release software in US with non-US standards....or at least the option to choose US standards

[muleman1]

@joseph_hermogenes_042016 do you make the "as noted" change just in the 'strengthclass' data base or multiple places? This seems the most logical and time efficient'fix', other than joint design calcs still wrong.  We are simple minded and just dont understand why AS would release software in US with non-US standards....or at least the option to choose US standards

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi @muleman1

I only changed the the "Run Name" from 10.9 to "As noted" and left the "Key" as 10.9 in MT/AstorBase/StrengthClass. The rest do not need changing. When you look at MT/Bolts, the Grade have already changed to "As noted".

Please note that all bolts, nuts and washer that used the grade 10.9 will all changed to "As noted".

This will make the grades generic (but not incorrect anyway).

 And correct, bolt check under  joint design is still going to be incorrect as the tensile strength used is in calculation is  10.9.

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi @muleman1

I only changed the the "Run Name" from 10.9 to "As noted" and left the "Key" as 10.9 in MT/AstorBase/StrengthClass. The rest do not need changing. When you look at MT/Bolts, the Grade have already changed to "As noted".

Please note that all bolts, nuts and washer that used the grade 10.9 will all changed to "As noted".

This will make the grades generic (but not incorrect anyway).

 And correct, bolt check under  joint design is still going to be incorrect as the tensile strength used is in calculation is  10.9.

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi @Emanuel.Nestor,

Have you found any solution?

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Hi @Emanuel.Nestor,

Have you found any solution?

Regards,

Joseph

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Thank you for sharing the results of your tests.

I would refer further only to the "Procedure 1" from your answer, because this should be the fastest and easiest procedure.

As I said, I do not recommend to delete default installed bolts.

Also, I do not recommend renaming the grade "10.9" with something else, because it affects all the bolts with this grade

(however, it is up to you to do that. just remember this modification and be aware when you send the model to someone else and when you will upgrade / migrate to a newer version)

From the results 1. and 2., I understand the bolts I have sent you were imported: they are available in the Management Tools, you can use them in the 3D model and further in details, lists.

I am not sure what you mean by " I cannot make the ASTM A325 fix.". If the bolts are available - that should be fine.

If you get a strange behavior - please make a short video (maybe a Screencast) and we will investigate further.

For the result 3, - the joint design: being a completely new material, the joint design does not know about it.

But first I would like to clarify the new bolt grade behavior on your system, to be sure we do the right thing.

I will wait for your reply on this

Best regards,
Emy

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Thank you for sharing the results of your tests.

I would refer further only to the "Procedure 1" from your answer, because this should be the fastest and easiest procedure.

As I said, I do not recommend to delete default installed bolts.

Also, I do not recommend renaming the grade "10.9" with something else, because it affects all the bolts with this grade

(however, it is up to you to do that. just remember this modification and be aware when you send the model to someone else and when you will upgrade / migrate to a newer version)

From the results 1. and 2., I understand the bolts I have sent you were imported: they are available in the Management Tools, you can use them in the 3D model and further in details, lists.

I am not sure what you mean by " I cannot make the ASTM A325 fix.". If the bolts are available - that should be fine.

If you get a strange behavior - please make a short video (maybe a Screencast) and we will investigate further.

For the result 3, - the joint design: being a completely new material, the joint design does not know about it.

But first I would like to clarify the new bolt grade behavior on your system, to be sure we do the right thing.

I will wait for your reply on this

Best regards,
Emy

[muleman1]

@Emanuel.Nestor I think what @joseph_hermogenes_042016 is trying to communicate is the info/data in AS concerning A325 bolts is incorrect (along with a gazillion other things ). The strength and incorrect in the joint checking and the grade is incorrect as well. The A325 bolts are a US grade 8  not metric 10.9. We don't use metric in US... I'm not knocking the metric system, we actually like it....but we are constrained to US Imperial measurements and AS is not very friendly to anything but metric 

That said it it is a powerful program and it sure beats a pencil and a T-square  

[muleman1]

@Emanuel.Nestor I think what @joseph_hermogenes_042016 is trying to communicate is the info/data in AS concerning A325 bolts is incorrect (along with a gazillion other things ). The strength and incorrect in the joint checking and the grade is incorrect as well. The A325 bolts are a US grade 8  not metric 10.9. We don't use metric in US... I'm not knocking the metric system, we actually like it....but we are constrained to US Imperial measurements and AS is not very friendly to anything but metric 

That said it it is a powerful program and it sure beats a pencil and a T-square  

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Thanks @muleman1 for making that clear.

Hi @Emanuel.Nestor. I would like to re-phrase my question. Do you agree with the default AS database that grade 10.9 is correct for A325 bolt? If no, how can this be corrected? This same question applies with other US grade bolts, washer and nuts.

Regards,

Joseph

[joseph_hermogenes_042016]

Thanks @muleman1 for making that clear.

Hi @Emanuel.Nestor. I would like to re-phrase my question. Do you agree with the default AS database that grade 10.9 is correct for A325 bolt? If no, how can this be corrected? This same question applies with other US grade bolts, washer and nuts.

Regards,

Joseph

[Emanuel.Nestor · Accepted solution]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Thank you for reply.

Well, I will try to put it like this: the current bolts A325 are implemented in Advance Steel from quite some time. They are as they are.

I would not recommend to "replace" them.

Reasons: compatibility of existing projects (this is the main one), migrate to new versions.

I understand you would want to have bolts A325, with the grade A325.

The best way, from my point of view, would be to create new bolts, separate from the existing ones.

I have attached to a previous reply a database with complete new sets of bolts A325 with grade A325.

If you import them in a clean database, I would expect to get them as you request.

I would recommend the same way for other bolts that might be in the same situation: do not alter the installation bolts, create new bolt sets with the desired grade.

In case you encounter any issue with importing the bolts I have sent or with creating new bolts - please let me know and we will solve them.

Please note: I am not discussing about joint design yet.

I just want to make sure you get the desired / expected bolt configuration for the 3D model, details and BOM lists.

So please let me know the state on your side and we will get further from that point.

Maybe a desktop sharing (Team Viewer) session would be helpful ?

Best regards,
Emy

[Emanuel.Nestor · Accepted solution]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Thank you for reply.

Well, I will try to put it like this: the current bolts A325 are implemented in Advance Steel from quite some time. They are as they are.

I would not recommend to "replace" them.

Reasons: compatibility of existing projects (this is the main one), migrate to new versions.

I understand you would want to have bolts A325, with the grade A325.

The best way, from my point of view, would be to create new bolts, separate from the existing ones.

I have attached to a previous reply a database with complete new sets of bolts A325 with grade A325.

If you import them in a clean database, I would expect to get them as you request.

I would recommend the same way for other bolts that might be in the same situation: do not alter the installation bolts, create new bolt sets with the desired grade.

In case you encounter any issue with importing the bolts I have sent or with creating new bolts - please let me know and we will solve them.

Please note: I am not discussing about joint design yet.

I just want to make sure you get the desired / expected bolt configuration for the 3D model, details and BOM lists.

So please let me know the state on your side and we will get further from that point.

Maybe a desktop sharing (Team Viewer) session would be helpful ?

Best regards,
Emy

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Regarding the bolt strength for design:

The AISC design values for bolts are stored in the database AstorJointsCalculation, tables:

• AISC_BoltShearStress
• AISC_BoltTensileStress

The easiest way is to open them with Management Tools - Table editor. Please see attached picture too.

The nominal stress value is set for each standard and for each grade, units N/mm2

As example, based on the attached image:

- for the Standard "ASTM A325" --> the tensile strength is set to 620.53 N/mm2

- Note that the cell for "BoltClassStrength" is empty. In this case, this value is used for all grades

- If you have different grades for one standard, you set the design value for the combination "Standard+Grade". See the standard "SPIT EPCON C8", for which 3 lines are there - one for each grade

So, if you add a new grade to the existing bolt standard ASTM A325, you would need to add a new record in these 2 tables for bolt design.

I hope this will help you to set the desired design values.

Best regards,
Emy

[Emanuel.Nestor]

Hi @joseph_hermogenes_042016,

Regarding the bolt strength for design:

The AISC design values for bolts are stored in the database AstorJointsCalculation, tables:

• AISC_BoltShearStress
• AISC_BoltTensileStress

The easiest way is to open them with Management Tools - Table editor. Please see attached picture too.

The nominal stress value is set for each standard and for each grade, units N/mm2

As example, based on the attached image:

- for the Standard "ASTM A325" --> the tensile strength is set to 620.53 N/mm2

- Note that the cell for "BoltClassStrength" is empty. In this case, this value is used for all grades

- If you have different grades for one standard, you set the design value for the combination "Standard+Grade". See the standard "SPIT EPCON C8", for which 3 lines are there - one for each grade

So, if you add a new grade to the existing bolt standard ASTM A325, you would need to add a new record in these 2 tables for bolt design.

I hope this will help you to set the desired design values.

Best regards,
Emy

[Anonymous]

Emy,

Thanks for the info, your insight is always appreciated. I know you've said "...you don't recommend ..." but, can you forward me the names of ALL the tables that are used in making up the bolting systems? Bolt, nuts, washers ... sets, sources ... etc.? I'm trying to fully understand how the system works and the tables integrate. I'd really appreciate the information.

And for my 2 cents on how to specify bolts (2 examples):

The specification Agency: ASTM *** SAE 

The specifications: A325, A307, A563, F436 *** J429, J995, J2655

The grade: TYPE_1, TYPE_3, GR_C, GR_DH *** GR_2, GR_5, GR_8

[Anonymous]

Emy,

Thanks for the info, your insight is always appreciated. I know you've said "...you don't recommend ..." but, can you forward me the names of ALL the tables that are used in making up the bolting systems? Bolt, nuts, washers ... sets, sources ... etc.? I'm trying to fully understand how the system works and the tables integrate. I'd really appreciate the information.

And for my 2 cents on how to specify bolts (2 examples):

The specification Agency: ASTM *** SAE 

The specifications: A325, A307, A563, F436 *** J429, J995, J2655

The grade: TYPE_1, TYPE_3, GR_C, GR_DH *** GR_2, GR_5, GR_8