Multiple 3ds Max instances open + Saving = Lag

[DGTLTWNS]

Hi,

I have a few reports of people with 3ds Max 2020, 2022, 2023 (haven't tested 2021) slowing down our workstations, when multiple instances of 3ds Max are open and (auto)saving.

I have recorded a video of this here: https://youtu.be/zzsiOCMhHr8

First part of the video is me saving with only one instance open. Second part (00:18) is with a second file open in another instance. As you can see my workstation grinds to a halt and my cursor is barely moving. It seems I'm not the only one. This started happening a couple of months ago. Maybe a Windows update caused this or something. I looked at my Windows 10 update history in the last half year and most of them are .NET updates.

Can people with the same experience confirm, and could Autodesk investigate this please, because this is super annoying.

Thank you.

[DGTLTWNS]

*This post has been edited by the moderator due to Community Rules and Etiquette.

I share your frustration, each and every day for the past years.

Crazy how easily they brush this problem over to the side of AMD, while there's absolutely NO OTHER PIECE OF SOFTWARE out there that has this issue. 

On top of that worst customer service in history of software. They have all the knowledge, tools and resources at their disposal to see what the problem is, but they didn't even ask for a remote session.

THEY should be the ones asking for more information on plugins, drivers or hardware specifics or anything, so they can narrow it down at least.

[DGTLTWNS]

As for the ones asking why run more than one 3ds Max instance? Here's one that applies to me:

Example I'm working on a project and I need a new material/shader, let's say for instance for some type of wood. I open a new 3ds Max with my material testing scene. I create my material, I render it out on my material ball and I save it in a mat file, and I add it to (in my case) Connecter. So when done, I can drag it over to my other Max instance that has my project open and apply it or I can easily find it again for when I need it in other projects. 

I'm NOT going to close my project, open my material scene, create the material, close that max file, reopen my project apply the material, only to discover 5 minutes later that I need another material, or that I need to tweak some things in the original material that I missed first. This is wasting a LOT of time on closing and re-opening.

Having another Max instance open to prepare materials, assets, in testing scenes specifically designed to do just that, has proven to be an extremely valuable time saver, either for re-use but also for consistency in look and quality. 

What about Xrefs (scenes, objects), containers and whatnot. Are you guys telling me you're closing and reopening your projects every step of the way? Then you're literally spending half your time on that. I'm sorry but I like to work fast, and so do my clients. 

Having another Max instance open to copy from one project to another (indeed that's why there are so many copy paste scripts, god forbid this is a standard functionality by the way) is also something that is used a lot. No person (in their right mind) that likes to work fast and organized should work in one 3ds Max instance. It's. Just. Not. Feasible.

I have another theory that would make this ordeal understandable. Maybe Intel payed a lot of money to Autodesk to make sure that AMD's flagship processors barely work with their software, so when time comes we switch back over to Intel, I know I am starting to yield. Seems far-fetched? Maybe, but it would explain to me why the **** no-one's doing anything about it. 

[hellojoea]

totally agree with your examples of needing multiple instances of max open at once.

I have many projects on at one time and this means that I need to dive into several files throughout the day. For example, I may be working on one project but then get some urgent amends through from a client on another job (this happens daily!) and rather than save what I'm working on and opening the other job I will simply open another copy of max and work on the other job at the same time. I also use backburner and this means I can be submitting jobs to backburner in one copy of max and whilst waiting for them to submit I can be working on another file.

There are many other examples but I think the point is clear really, it's just simply trying to be as efficient as possible throughout my working day.

I've never had a problem working this way in 18 years, until I got a new pc with the amd threadripper!

[gandhics]

I don't think anyone questioning why someone would use multiple instances. Most users open multiple instances all the time. At home and at work, I always open multiple instances, usually more than 3.

The problem here is dev can't reproduce nor have a step to reproduce. I also have AMD and Intel machines. I never had this issue. If a developer can't reproduce an issue, it is simply impossible to fix. They need something to investigate,

Or, at least there need to be some consistency.

- Is it happen on a certain version of Max? No, I have seen reports from 2021-2023 what not.

- Is it a certain processor? No. I have friends who is using TR without an issue. I also have ones who has issue. Max dev has TR machine and don't have issue.

If this is issue is at least like "it happens on all TR XXX since Max 20XX", there could be something to look at. But, I don't see any of these.

THat's why I was suspecting CPU-related stuff instead of CPU itself.

[DGTLTWNS]

Sure, but there's a lot of people that can reproduce it without issues. I will be happy to let them to do a remote session, I wouldn't mind giving up my workstation for half a day if needed for them to investigate. And I'm sure that a lot of my colleagues will be happy to help as well. Or even a simple survey to collect as much info as needed, like V-Ray did when they had performance problems. But I see zero initiative, my request was met with, we know. I had to have 3 follow up emails to figure out why, and then, case is closed. Where I'm from the case stays open until there's a fix, so I can at least add information when needed or ask follow up questions.

Also some people do question, or advise against opening multiple instances, because it's not supported. But as you state yourself, you as a hardcore Max user, don't see yourself using only one Max instance either. So why isn't it supported, it's way too time consuming not to. Saying it's not supported is just the easy way out. We're 2023 for god's sake. 

[Diffus3d]

I can't imagine a scenario where someone *wouldn't* need multiple instances open at some point during their work.  If there is some official notice saying that it's not supported I've never seen it.   I use multiple instances daily. 

I think it has to do with multithreading.  Disable it in the bios and use the windows native multithreading instead and I'd bet the problem goes away.  If something locks up a whole machine for long periods of time, it's a hardware / bios configuration / driver issue 90% of the time.  

You have to want to solve it, and that is not happening here.  Nobody is listed their specs or posted attempts to test bios settings.  This type of thing has always happened with computers, feel lucky that you no longer have to allocated expanded vs extended memory, IRQ interrupt request conflicts, and a host of other rage inducing but normal computer issues over the past 40 years.   

But nothing happens without you taking the first step, because it's likely not a problem just with just 3dsmax, but with windows, bios, m/b and how they talk to each other.  I can see a path toward a resolution by collecting information and looking for similarities.  I cannot see a path toward a resolution that is filled with inaction and angst.  It's like complaining to the doctor that you are in terrible pain but refusing to point out where.  

What's that quote...  "Be the change you want to see in the world."   Your move.  

Best Regards,

[RobH2]

I'd like to hear a little bit more about "Disable it in the bios and use the windows native multithreading instead" as that's a new one to me. Can you elaborate on that a bit and I'll try it?

[Diffus3d]

Your motherboard or computer should come with a manual that explains how to do that.  It's located and labelled  differently for every type of bios, so it's hard to guide you here.   But this link shows more info about it for some random motherboard.  

1 (random motherboard)

2 (reddit thread for ryzom master software, whatever that is)

3 (more links about smt causing problems on windows)

EDIT: Removed steam thread, it was silly.  

Best Regards,

[RobH2]

I disabled SMT and ran a benchmark (Performance Test). It came in about the same as always, in the 96th Percentile. I'll try it for awhile and see what happens but I can't tell any difference. 

I really never have had the lag issues that are discussed in this thread except for the terrible V-Ray IPR render performance while working in a viewport. And, I do in fact have an AMD processor, a Ryzen 9. 

I still think there is something common on all the affected machines that's causing this. There aren't 1000s of users experiencing this. Something common to all of you who suffer it share some setting, program or configurartion in common. It's not going to be easy to figure out. But I agree with Alfred, until a bunch of you start to share BIOS settings and a lot of other info, it's not going to get solved in the short term. Even as no developers have responded here, I'm going to venture a guess that they know of the issue and are looking at it. 

I'm currently running 3 instances of Max with 3 different files that are all around 500K polys, I know that's not huge but if the lag is due to "mere instances" then any files open should cause it I'd think. I think there was one post complaining of lag with a file over 4-million polys. True, we can have proxys in files with Forest Pro or whatever and have files with 10 or 15 million polys (I had one once with 1.2 billion and could actually work on it) and still get around, but things do slow way, way down. So I don't think it's entirely fair to fault Max if it's running slow with a 4-million poly file. I have a V-Ray IPR render running in one file and simultaneously in another of three instances, my framerate is 60fps. 

So roll up your sleeves and start sharing info. Maybe something will be found. If I discover anything to help I'll report back as well. 

[RobH2]

Here is something I just ran across. It might help. 

https://forums.chaos.com/forum/v-ray-for-3ds-max-forums/v-ray-for-3ds-max-general/1181369-did-the-la...

"Yes, we get slowdowns with multiple instances of Max, but if you minimize the other instances it is negligible. If you leave them in view behind another Max instance than the slowdown can sometimes be profound. I don't think this update solved that, though. Can't say I have specifically tested that because I am in the habit of minimizing the other Max (also keep you from clicking on the wrong material editor on a second monitor and making changes to the wrong scene.. no, never done that...)."

[hellojoea]

so just to clarify, its not that multiple instances of max are slower whilst open and working in them, or not for me anyway. The issue is on opening/saving/closing max whilst having other instances of max open.

So when I have 1 copy of max open I can hit save and browse the internet at the same time, read emails, change music etc etc but as soon as I have two or more copies of max open the second I hit save/open/close the whole pc essentially freezes, until that file has opened/saved/closed. I cant even move to my internet browser etc, it just becomes so slow/sluggish, the mouse "judders" across the screen. Its so so odd.

I am happy to list whatever settings/info is needed...I am certainly not great when it comes to being techy with hardware/software, so when you say things like "disable multithread in the bios" im not ashamed to say it means very little to me! However, I'm sure a quick google would help me work it out!

I think I've listed this before but im running

3ds max 2020, vray 6 (whatever the latest update is)

Various plugins - forestpack, mad car

PC Spec -

AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3960X

128gb ram

windows 10 pro

Nvidia Geforce RTX 3090

I work from a server, but I have a friend who is also having this problem who works locally, so i dont think its anything to do with working on a server vs working on a local hard drive etc.

Is there anything else that would be helpful to know?

If everyone else having this problem could also list the same info as above, maybe there will be a pattern?!!

[Diffus3d]

I wonder if most folks with the problem have the same plugins.  

[info2V35E]

And for me any file operations cause the issue to. just for clarity.

[info2V35E]

Ok lets do this. Tell me what you want to know, and tell me what you want me to test. 

[Diffus3d]

I think with a problem like this the key is to find similarities between users having the issue.  And this pertaining specifically to slow saving times (up to 10 minutes, one user reported.)    Edit: my bad.  Opening and Saving.  

Start with the template here.  If we can get a good 10-20 folks with the problem to put there data there, we can start to draw some conclusions on where to look harder.  I realize this is frustrating, but it helps narrow down the focus and increases the likelihood of the problem getting at least acknowledged by a large margin.  Thank you.  

Best Regards,

[DGTLTWNS]

I'm creating a typeform where we can input all the data, i'm going to take this data and put it into a google sheet and share it with everyone so we can see if there's a common denominator. Just give me some time to create it. I'll post the link here.

[info2V35E]

I disagree that it is specifically associated with long save times. It can cause long save times, but the lag is present when saving/opening/closing any file of any size.

[hellojoea]

Yep was about to say the same thing...its not the time it takes to save, its the performance of the pc whilst saving/opening/closing, for me anyway!

[info2V35E]

I just did a few of the very latest updates and so far - so good...

[hellojoea]

which updates are you referring to? max? vray?