Multiple 3ds Max instances open + Saving = Lag

[DGTLTWNS]

Hi,

I have a few reports of people with 3ds Max 2020, 2022, 2023 (haven't tested 2021) slowing down our workstations, when multiple instances of 3ds Max are open and (auto)saving.

I have recorded a video of this here: https://youtu.be/zzsiOCMhHr8

First part of the video is me saving with only one instance open. Second part (00:18) is with a second file open in another instance. As you can see my workstation grinds to a halt and my cursor is barely moving. It seems I'm not the only one. This started happening a couple of months ago. Maybe a Windows update caused this or something. I looked at my Windows 10 update history in the last half year and most of them are .NET updates.

Can people with the same experience confirm, and could Autodesk investigate this please, because this is super annoying.

Thank you.

[DGTLTWNS]

This is how I can reproduce it 100% and it's weird:

- Start first 3ds Max instance and open a file
- Up until now I can still save normally
- Start second 3ds Max, don't open a file yet
- I can still save normally in the first opened 3ds Max
- Open a file in the second 3ds Max (don't save yet)
- I can still save normally in the first opened 3ds Max
- Now save the second opened file > SLOW DOWN happens
- Now try and save the first file again > Now it also slows down in this instance
- Close the first or second 3ds Max (reset doesn't work)
- The 3ds Max that is left open saves normally again.

So it's like the second Max messes something up the moment it is asked to save.

[RobH2]

I followed your list explicitly in Max 2023 and could not reproduce the anamoly. I used large files and small files and each time they all saved in exctly the same amount of time on all instances. Also, you said "reset doesn't work" yet I had no trouble with reset in either instance. 

It leads me to think that there must be some common thing on all the machines that are seeing this issue. Something common must be interfering. Maybe they all have one particular 3rd party plugin or some other program. It's going to be difficut to figure out what that is, but  since I can't reproduce it, it doesn't seem that's it's a bug or it would affect all installations. 

Of course, just because I can't reproduce it doesn't definitively prove there isn't a problem. But if a lot of people report that they can't reproduce it, it will start to further indicate it's not a bug in Max. Hopefully some of the Autodesk people will have a look at this. I'll keep an eye on it too. 

[DGTLTWNS]

Hi RobH2, Thank you for your response. I feel it's hard to find the right combination of software or maybe hardware where this might lead to people having similar problems. I hope some other people will chime in on this, so we could get to the bottom of this. 

[DGTLTWNS]

I reread your reply. And it's not that the saving takes longer. They always save in the same amount of time. The whole workstation just becomes unusable while it's saving. The time saving isn't the problem. 

Also by reset doesn't work, I meant, File > Reset doesn't alleviate the problem of the lagging save, only closing all but one 3ds Max instance. 

[RobH2]

You didn't list any specs to your computer. It's why I have all of mine in my signature so that it's always there so people don't have to guess when I ask a question. Like you, I use this forum to solve my own problems as well as post to try to help others. Knowing the computer specs can often help diagnose. 

It sounds like your processor is being consumed during the save or you don't have much RAM left with other instances open. Without specs, there is no way to know that. Can you post them?

[DGTLTWNS]

Yes ofcourse. I tried this on 2 workstations. Both latest Windows 10. Both latest 3ds Max 2022 and 2020. Exact same behaviour. The manufacturers of the hardware is less necessary I suppose. 

CPU: AMD Threadripper 3990x

RAM: 128 GB DDR4 

SSD: FireCuda 530 2TB

Second SSD: 2 x FireCuda 530TB 4TB in Raid 0 in Highpoint Raid controller

GPU: Nvidia RTX 3080Ti

Monitors : 3 x Dell Ultrasharp 27 inch + Huion 24 inch pen tablet

CPU: AMD Threadripper 3970x

RAM: 128 GB DDR4 

SSD: Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB

Second SSD: 2 x FireCuda 530TB 4TB in Raid 0 in Highpoint Raid controller

GPU: Nvidia RTX 2080Ti

Monitors : 2 x Dell Ultrasharp 27 inch + 27 inch AOC monitor

The specs aren't really the problem, unless it has something to do with the AMD threadrippers.

[RobH2]

Ok, no reason for lag due to insufficient system. That makes it harder to diagnose. Often times people have issues with Max and then we find out they are using a laptop that's not powerful enough. You don't have that problem. 

I do know I have an issue with my Ryzen 9. It will cause my system to lag when I use a webcam with video and audio. It's a known issue with the processor's kernel. It could be a Threadripper issue. It would be interesting to find out if all the other people having the issue have a Threadripper 39xxx series. If so, that's a start. 

I don't think I can be of any more help but this might help some of the Autodesk moderators help you. They know the tech much better. 

[kyronLNJPB]

Our studio has been experiencing the same issues and so far the only common denominator seems to be we are all on AMD Threadrippers. A similar topic has been posted at the Chaos Group forums about massive system lag in 3ds max 2023 during renders.

Every version of Max up to 2022 has performed perfectly. But in our massive scenes the system lag while saving in 2023 is really bad. I tested the OP's theory of it only happening in a 2nd instance of max (which I was unaware of) and that seems to be the case. I tend to always have a couple of instances of Max running hence am always experiencing this issue. Total system lag, messages being typed in Slack happen at 1 letter per 2 seconds sort of thing. Unresponsive explorer windows etc. Mouse juddering around the screen.

I tried the latest Nvidia Studio drivers and have updated all plugins such as V-ray/Anima/Forest Pack Pro to the latest as well as upgrading all workstations to the latest Max 2023.2.2 service pack.

I hope Autodesk can find a solution. V-ray renders completely freeze the system as well until the render is finished. Chaos seems to be scratching their heads but it seems like a 2nd instance of Max 2023 in combination with Threadripper CPU's is the commonality between both issues at play here.

We have been putting up with it for weeks but it's getting pretty maddening.

Our studio has similar workstation specs across the board. Mine is:
Windows 10 Pro / AMD Threadripper 3960X / 128gb Ram / All SSD drives / Nvidia RTX 3080

[RobH2]

I'm really keeping my eye on this. While I can't reproduce the "mulitple instances" problems, I am seeing what I think is significantly slower overall performance in Max 2023. I was working on a file yesterday that was very similar to many I've done over the years and it was just slooooow and iritiating. No jittering or freezing or any navigation issues that were overtly obvious, but things were just slow. I have a AMD Ryzen 9 3950-X. I rebooted, ran a few tests and tried again and the same lack of  performance overall. Other programs, Photoshop, After Effects and CAD programs, big processor hogs, seemed fine. 

I do wonder now if there is some issue with the AMD architecture for these upper end processors?

[RobH2]

I use benchmark software all the time. I generally get really high marks for my rig based on the world data available. So, I think my machine is pretty well tuned. But none of them use Max so it would not identify any bottlenecks related to Max and AMD processors. 

I haven't seen one however that launches Max and uses it to generate data. That might be helpful. But, there is a VRay benchmarking application. Maybe we shoud all run the same version of that and compare results. It might shed some light on things. 

[RobH2]

I don't know if this helps but I'm posting tests I did with V-Ray Benchmark 5, latest one. It doesn't use Max but maybe it's a place to start to see if we can figure out what's causing the lag. A casual search indicated that my scores are pretty much average and expected. So, I don't see any sign of a bottleneck here. 

[info2V35E]

Can confirm I and friends in different locations using different systems are having the same issue. Massive slowdowns and it's really killing productivity for us.

My personal setup:

[DGTLTWNS]

I wonder where the response of Autodesk is... We're not the only ones, I'm pretty sure. At least Chaos provides support and remote sessions to look for problems when some report these kind of problems. Some people advised to use procmon to see what happens at the time of saving but I have 0 clue on how to use this thing to troubleshoot. Not sure if something will come up but willing to give it a try, so if someone could tell me on how to use it for this specific case, I'd be grateful.

Or you know...some answer from someone involved with the product I've been using for 15 years and had 0 support for, since forever. 

[info2V35E]

I too am a bit baffled there aren't more people reporting this. Perhaps it isn't so wide-spread...

[RobH2]

Over the years I've had great input from a couple of Autodesk connected people. You might have luck if you PM them. One is @Diffus3d and the other is @jon.bell. I can't guarantee anything but if they can't help them might be able to steer you in the right direction for some help. 

[CiroCardoso3v]

Does this happen with a clean 3ds Max installation without any 3rd party scripts? Someone gave me the suggestion of using processMon (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/procmon) to see what 3ds Max is doing. And it could be related to a 3rd party plugin, script or renderer you have installed.

Also are you saving the file into a server or locally?

[info2V35E]

Saving locally. Unfortunately I simply don't have the time to test a fresh
install rn

[Diffus3d]

My best suggestion for something like this is to submit a ticket through Manage.Autodesk.com.  The more of you that do it, the better.   I privately messaged a support person I know that works at Autodesk and this issue hasn't been reported officially, so please take a few minutes to do that.  If it's related to Vray, then obviously Chaosgroup would need to be involved but the first step is to get eyes on it by submitting a ticket.  

For what it's worth, I have a Threadripper gen 3 and am a die hard Vray user.  With multiple copies open I don't have any problems rendering or saving with Vray 6 and Windows 10.  However, I am using 3dsmax 2021 because that's the version needed for my current project which goes well into next year. 

There may be something with 2023 that is causing a problem here, there was a problem with Corona as well with the render menu.  However if it's slowing the entire system then it could be an OS or file handling issue, maybe a .net update recently broke something, or a system process is hanging up on the multiple copies accessing a shared resource.   A realtime scanner is getting bottlenecked perhaps, or a timeout / outward connection issue getting blocked? 

Out of curiosity, what A/V do you all use?   Motherboards might be worth listing here, odd issues like this sometimes related to BIOS updates that are needed due to recent OS or .net updates.  There's so many potential causes for system freezes but they may all relate to the system itself.  (Doesn't mean it's not triggered or caused by something in 3dsmax, just that the OS handles part of this transaction and there's a chance the problem is there.)  

For posterity, here's my specs.   Confirmed no problems on 2021 with Vray 6 and Win10.  I only have 64gb RAM, but I do notice everyone with the problem has 128.  

AMD Threadripper 3960
RTX 3070
64 GB RAM

Primary HD:  Samsung 860 EVO

Secondary HD: Seagate 6TB 7200 rpm.  
Motherboard: ASRock MB TRX40
Windows 10
BitDefender A/V

EDIT: Vray had an update recently, might be worth trying if everyone with the problem is on Vray.  Otherwise, I wonder if you all have the same motherboard model or manufacturer, or A/V, or something that needs an update.   (Guessing.)

Best Regards,

[info2V35E]

Thanks for the reply! I'll log it properly like you've suggested.