CUI Editor Enhancements

[dcochran]

Hello,

We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Doug Cochran
Autodesk, Inc.

[Anonymous]

That cannot be (totally) true. No feature is added that hasn't been
discussed, trialed in usability studies, and tested either in-house, or in
beta.

However, I think the complexity of the options came as a surprise even to
Autodesk, and the beta test was sure not as thorough as it could have been.
After all, I didn't really determine how I wanted our in-house setup to be
until a month or two *after* the release.

--
R. Robert Bell


"None" wrote in message
news:5149605@discussion.autodesk.com...
"People don't like it because it doesn't appear to have been very well
thought out." is a severe understatement - autodesk gave it no thought
except for their own purposes!

[Anonymous]

Glad I could help (some). ;^)

--
R. Robert Bell


wrote in message news:5149569@discussion.autodesk.com...
Thank you Robert, that worked. It took me a little while to figure out to
use cui import and transfer line by line. Not intuitive at all. Now I just
have to work on the tool boxes and slides.

I don't see any advantage to the cui. If Autodesk wanted a simple graphic
interface to customize menus, they should have set it up so you just right
clicked a toolbox or tool bar to create a new one or modify an existing one.
Oh, wait, that's how it used to be. For customizing the digitizer menu,
they could have put it into a text file so it could be modified using
notepad. Oh, wait, that's how it used to be. If a graphical interface was
desired for the digitizer, a picture of the digitizer overlay could be
pulled up and each square could be right clicked so that the icon and/or the
command/macro could be edited.

Thanks again Robert, I feel like I've taken a huge step forward in spite of
the cui.

Lowell McCormick

[Anonymous]

I agree, they did think it out and put a lot of effort into it.
Heck, they tried to improve something we didn't even ask for.
But, they must have thought they were dealing with a spleen, not the heart.
The fact is, the number one comment when I change an acad version is:
"How do I get my toolbars and pulldowns back how they were in the previous version"

Adesk should be doing EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING to make that easy, they are in the business of selling upgrades.
Maybe the worst thing we do is pay subscription.
Has anyone saved money from it?
All I see is great deals on upgrades from resellers if you wait til the last moment.

R. Robert Bell
|>That cannot be (totally) true. No feature is added that hasn't been
|>discussed, trialed in usability studies, and tested either in-house, or in
|>beta.
|>
|>However, I think the complexity of the options came as a surprise even to
|>Autodesk, and the beta test was sure not as thorough as it could have been.
|>After all, I didn't really determine how I wanted our in-house setup to be
|>until a month or two *after* the release.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

Interesting, I always lose the osnap menu once LDT gets initialized if I run things that way.
Do you use LDT Robert? I forget.

R. Robert Bell
|>Rick,
|>
|>I'm glad you started Custom that way, as that is what I recommend these
|>days. I've tried to duplicate you JIT errors, but cannot (likely missing a
|>step or two). If you want to email me privately, to work on this, I'd be
|>happy to help.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

wow I haven't even got half way through all the comments. You really opened
up a can of worms.
Here is my 2cents

First off I do applaud the idea of trying to make the customization
experience into a gui. It should have happened a long time ago.
But the version 1 product has alienated all the people that have years of
AutoCAD experience.

#1 the .xml thing was a bad idea. Autodesk keeps adding new files such as
.ctb, .pc3, .dst, etc... that cannot be edited in notepad.
AutoCAD has for years been able to be customized / edited with a plain text
file. Going to a GUI is counter productive for the bulk of your customers.

#2 its too slow. It doesn't matter that it was fixed in version 2. The
fact is version 1 left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Someone should have
noticed
in version 1 that it was too slow and held off releasing the product until
the speed issue is fixed. I hate the .cui because the first time I tried it
it was too
slow. I will not try to use it again no matter how fast you make it because
version 1 did not work. That's why I will continue to edit my .mnu's

#3 again please don't release a product until it works. The cui editor is
just not initiative to do some basic things that could be done before in the
old customize. Like drag and drop a toolbar. I get asked all the time from
my cad uses why can't I drag an icon from one toolbar to another. Another
thing why can't I change the order of my pulldown menu's. Wait I can't even
figure out where my pulldown menu's are. Even if there is a solution, its
just not initiative on how to do these simple tasks.

#4 The workspace feature really doesn't work well for what I need. I am
tired of how the cui try's to load every menu I have every loaded. I get
errors all the time saying this partition menu is not available or what
ever. With the .mnu system it was relative easy to menuload and unload
multiple partial menu's. For whatever reason now that no longer works.
What I really need is a system where I setup all the company / 3rd party
menu's and the end user just picks the application that he needs. I don't
need my end users loading menu's and playing around trying to get stuff to
work.


--
Dave

wrote in message news:5146408@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hello,

We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As
a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Doug Cochran
Autodesk, Inc.

[Anonymous]

the bitmaps are already there in the pulldowns in '06 and '07... (for the
most part)

--
Craig
_______________
Dreamers don't have strategic grill locations...


"James Maeding" wrote in message
news:5149523@discussion.autodesk.com...
Laurie,
What a great idea, convert pop menu to toolbar!
At first I thought, "sure, what about nested items in pulldowns, like the
arc items in the Draw pulldown", but then I
remembered toolbar flyout buttons.
Only problem is assigning bitmaps, but maybe acad could fill in
automatically with colors, and we change later.
Anyway, cool idea.

I like your list below, it addresses many common tasks.

Laurie Comerford
|>Hi Bud,
|>
|>I don't think 8 seconds is acceptable for opening any dialog box in a mass
|>market product such as AutoCAD. You should be aiming at under a second.
|>
|>I'm on a seriously fast computer where the first opening took about 4
|>seconds and the second about 2 and those delays are annoying
|>
|>Suggestions:
|>
|>Provide in the normal interface that key/mouse combinations can:
|>
|>Add a pop menu
|>Copy a pop menu inclusive of assigning a name to the copy
|>Delete a pop menu
|>Hide/show a pop menu
|>Change the column order of the pop menus by dragging a menu.
|>Convert a pop menu to a toolbar
|>
|>Add a menu item (open a small dialog box to enter the command details)
|>Copy a menu item
|>Delete a menu item
|>Change the row order of commands by dragging the command.
|>Drag a menu item to a toolbar and visa versa
|>Copy a menu item
|>Change the location of a toolbar icon by dragging it to any visible
toolbar
|>
|>Add all of the above to the Undo command.
|>
|>This would remove the need to have a CUI editor and as each of the
commands
|>is handled as a single events the response times could have no observable
|>delay.
|>
|>Assuming the CUI is to be kept then:
|>Clearly part of the slow speed of opening the CUI dialog box is populating
a
|>large number of list boxes - many of which may not be needed is a given
|>session. Why not look at leaving these unpopulated till you get a
Getfocus
|>event on the list box
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

question: why do you want mbuttonpan left set to 1, if you are not planning
on panning with it?

--
Craig
_______________
Dreamers don't have strategic grill locations...


"James Maeding" wrote in message
news:5149176@discussion.autodesk.com...
Bud,
Things are harder, no question about it.
Its downright dangerous to show users the CUI.
On top of that, the CUI system took away some functionality, and made some
things slow.

For instance, I want my middle button to pull up the osnap menu, and my
thumb button to do the panning.
So I assign F11 to the osnap menu and my middle button to keystroke F11.
That way I can keep MButtonpan to 1, and set my thumb button to middle
button.

Well, when you do that, the osnap menu does not "show" until you move the
mouse, after clicking the wheel.
Its very annoying since we type the mnemonic of the osnap. You end up
seeing an e on the command line and it screws up
the whole rythm.
So its back to mbuttonpan as 0. Then the osnap menu comes up without having
to move the mouse.

The CUI just destroyed so many patterns that worked fine, and replaced with
slow, confusing, energy intensive patterns
that its usefullness has all but collapsed for the average user.

Bud, what happened with the whole CUI effort? Just from the comments on the
newsgroups, you could probably design a
better interface! I have no idea if you are a programmer, but I get the
feeling Adesk did not consult even you on this
stuff...I do appreciate your asking our opinion, we are desperate to make
this CUI system workable again.

Bud Schroeder [Autodesk Inc.]
|>Hi Herman,
|>
|>You can also put the toolbars in a Workspace and turn them back on that
way.
|>For example you could turn off all the toolbars you don't want on, then
save
|>that as a Workspace. Then anytime you want just those toolbars use that
|>workspace.
|>
|>Also do you have any ideas on how it could be simpler? If so we would
|>really like to hear that as well. One thing that we are looking at is are
|>things harder to do or just different because it's changed? Then we want
|>to make the right changes based on the feedback.
|>
|>Thanks again for your feedback.
|>
|>Bud Schroeder
|>AutoCAD Test Developement
|>Autodesk Inc.
|>
|> wrote in message news:5148306@discussion.autodesk.com...
|>Not quite. In previous versions there was a dialog box available to turn
|>toolbars on/off. AFAIK, this dialog was discontinued in 2006, though the
|>command line interface is still there.
|>
|>"Right click any toolbar" is not possible if no toolbar is visible.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

R. Robert Bell wrote:
> Martti,
>
> You can "retrieve" the off-screen dialog using the standard Windows UI...
> hit Alt+Spacebar, select the move option, and use the arrow keys to move the
> dialog back on-screen. Although I too wish it wouldn't be required to jump
> thru that hoop.

Yes, I always keep forgetting that you can use the keyboard to control
Windows. The biggest part of the problem was recognizing that this was
the problem, though.
I think that in these days of laptops and separate aux monitors any
program should consider the possibility of changing screen setups
between starts, instead of blindly using the same configuration that
last worked, especially in stuff that can be copied between machines.

--

[Anonymous]

Thanks James. Should have read the whole message closely. He does have some great
ideas. Big Duh. Sorry.


"James Maeding" wrote in message
news:5148864@discussion.autodesk.com...
please do not encourage Autodesk with statements like that.
Matt just offered some really cool ideas and all you can say is "I love the middle
button mouse pan..."
Like duh! We are saying we want that and more.
I don't think you get what he said.

adtuser
|>Hi Matt,
|>I don't understand this complaint. You've brought it up many times before. Have
|>you tried MBUTTONPAN=0? You get all of your menus back. I for one love the
|>middle mouse button pan and would like to keep it.
|>
|>Have you considered getting a swiss army type mouse with more than 3 buttons?
|>
|>Regards.
|>
|>

James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:03:02 +0000, David Allen wrote:

>#1 the .xml thing was a bad idea.

Exactly. First off, there's no reason for it. You can't (or at least shouldn't)
edit it with a text editor anyway - although that's the only way to do certain
things quickly. Possibly another case of "Just because Microsoft says it's neat
doesn't make it so."

But if the GUI is how we are to work with the user interface, then it HAS to be
snappy. To that end we should be able to make edits, then hit OK and/or Apply
and have things compile down to a _binary_ set of CUI files.

Relevant file sizes from ADT 2005:
adt.mnc = 73 KB
acad.mnc = 156 KB
acetmain.mnc = 18 KB (express tools)
company.mnc = 75 KB (custom company menu)

Total = 322 KB.

In ADT 2006:
adt.cui = 511 KB
acad.cui = 1577 KB
acetmain.cui = 95 KB
company.cui = 503 KB (Unchanged between releases)

Total = 2686 KB.

(MNR files are roughly the same.)

Is there any reason why we need to suffer an almost 9x increase in file sizes?
Remember we have to load this up every time we start AutoCAD, or change the CUI.
Across a network, for every user. I would be this is also a main factor in the
CUI GUI slowdown, as it has to parse all of this bloody text each and every
time.

Bah.

>#2 its too slow. It doesn't matter that it was fixed in version 2. The
>fact is version 1 left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Someone should have
>noticed in version 1 that it was too slow and held off releasing the product until
>the speed issue is fixed. I hate the .cui because the first time I tried it
>it was too slow.

Not only that, it's slow when everything's on a local drive. When you load CUIs
from the network (as most of us do) it's absolute torture.

In addition to CUI file size bloat, I believe this is largely because it's using
Microsoft's .NET Framework. If that is the case, someone should have made the
executive decison that it's unacceptably slow, and if .NET is the goal, at least
wait the required 3 times until Microsoft gets it right before it torpedoes
AutoCAD in the process.

>#3 again please don't release a product until it works.

IMHO this was simply a criminal move. AutoCAD is easily one of the most
customized applications for a corporate setting out there. Anything that affects
customization across a company in such a critical way needs to bake at least two
product release cycles before it is unleashed.

Take a page from id software. Don't release something until it's done. No one is
crying out for a new release of their CAD software each and every year.

Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com

[Anonymous]

Bud,
Thanks for your reply.

In response: (started as 'Matt:')

F.
How about utilising right-clicks a little more?
BUD: What would you like to see used more in the Right Click?
Matt: When right-clicking over the image path, default to the browse dialog. Vaguely related: copying and pasting copies of commands would be useful. ('About' -> 'Copy of About')

H.
A filter for the 'Command List'. As in the layer dialog.
BUD: You can filter and search the command list today? Are you looking for
more granularity in how you filter?
Matt: A wildcard search would be useful. Sometimes with things like 'Draw Concrete Hatch' I may have to look down 200 of my commands before I find the correct description.

J.
How about a more simple way of ordering the pull-down menus?
BUD: Can you tell us more about what you would consider more simple? Right
now you just click on the Workspace in CUI and expand the Menu. Then just
drag them where you want them to show up. Are you looking for a different
way? Thanks.
Matt: Just having all the available pull-downs in a tree (without the other junk) would be good. (i.e. not having to go through Partial Cui
K.
Once again, vaguely related: How about fixing the toolbar placement & lock
facility? I still have toolbars that don't stay where I want them to.
BUD: Sorry that one is not in the CUI except for the default location of the
toolbars. And that actually is the same as it was in the old MNU format.
But I will pass it on to the team that implamented the locking. Can you
give me some examples of the issues your seeing so that I can share that
with them?
Matt: A toolbar may be happy to stay on the first top row of toolbars, but not on the top second row of toolbars. Only happens intermitently, but is very annoying.


A new one or two:
i. Change the button editor 'clear' button, so that it clears it to the windows transparent colour instead of grey.
ii. A 'show file' right-click option when clicking on cui's, lsp's etc

Cheers,

Matt

[Anonymous]

the problem is that when you right click on a toolbar - you only get the toolbars associated with that toolbars menu (right click on an express toolbar and you only get options to open express toolbars etc...)
for instance if you make a new toolbar using the custom menu then close it out unless you thorooughly know how to manipulate the workspace portion of the cui it's next to impossible to get that toolbar open again

[Anonymous]

If you right click in the any of the toolbar margins (not on a toolbar) you
will get a selection of all loaded menus and their toolbars.

wrote in message news:5150678@discussion.autodesk.com...
the problem is that when you right click on a toolbar - you only get the
toolbars associated with that toolbars menu (right click on an express
toolbar and you only get options to open express toolbars etc...)
for instance if you make a new toolbar using the custom menu then close it
out unless you thorooughly know how to manipulate the workspace portion of
the cui it's next to impossible to get that toolbar open again

[Anonymous]

I agree wholeheartedly.

--
R. Robert Bell


"Martti Halminen" wrote in message
news:5149932@discussion.autodesk.com...
R. Robert Bell wrote:
> Martti,
>
> You can "retrieve" the off-screen dialog using the standard Windows UI...
> hit Alt+Spacebar, select the move option, and use the arrow keys to move
> the
> dialog back on-screen. Although I too wish it wouldn't be required to jump
> thru that hoop.

Yes, I always keep forgetting that you can use the keyboard to control
Windows. The biggest part of the problem was recognizing that this was
the problem, though.
I think that in these days of laptops and separate aux monitors any
program should consider the possibility of changing screen setups
between starts, instead of blindly using the same configuration that
last worked, especially in stuff that can be copied between machines.

--

[Anonymous]

No, we run ABS.

--
R. Robert Bell


"James Maeding" wrote in message
news:5149695@discussion.autodesk.com...
Interesting, I always lose the osnap menu once LDT gets initialized if I run
things that way.
Do you use LDT Robert? I forget.

R. Robert Bell
|>Rick,
|>
|>I'm glad you started Custom that way, as that is what I recommend these
|>days. I've tried to duplicate you JIT errors, but cannot (likely missing a
|>step or two). If you want to email me privately, to work on this, I'd be
|>happy to help.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:46:27 +0000, Matty_Taylor <> wrote:

>Matt: A toolbar may be happy to stay on the first top row of toolbars, but not on the top second row of toolbars. Only happens intermitently, but is very annoying.

In the past I've found this to be related to what menu (CUI) the particular
toolbar belongs to. For it to be placed correctly it needs to be in the "main"
CUI, which is loaded before all others.

Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com

[Anonymous]

it has nothing to do with Microsoft.
It's what they teach at the Bangalore tech universities. It's becoming the trademark of outsourced programming to have everything stored in these supposedly XML files, but yet still have all kinds of cryptic attributes and such (In the CUI case, what's up with all the UID's? shouldn't that just be a english-text tag, and have all UID's assigned when the CUI is read?).
Quickbooks switched to XML for its data, and it's just as impossible to edit.

--J

[Anonymous]

Craig,
I leave it on 0 now.

I would only consider setting it to 1 if I could get the F11 thing to work right, but it doesn't work right since CUI.

Craig Black
|>question: why do you want mbuttonpan left set to 1, if you are not planning
|>on panning with it?
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

you will run into issues with buttons in LDT if you set things up how you suggest.
Hopefully its just us that sees this problem

R. Robert Bell
|>No, we run ABS.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

[Anonymous]

no worries, just glad you went back and read it.

adtuser
|>Thanks James. Should have read the whole message closely. He does have some great
|>ideas. Big Duh. Sorry.
|>
|>
|>"James Maeding" wrote in message
|>news:5148864@discussion.autodesk.com...
|>please do not encourage Autodesk with statements like that.
|>Matt just offered some really cool ideas and all you can say is "I love the middle
|>button mouse pan..."
|>Like duh! We are saying we want that and more.
|>I don't think you get what he said.
|>
|>adtuser
|>|>Hi Matt,
|>|>I don't understand this complaint. You've brought it up many times before. Have
|>|>you tried MBUTTONPAN=0? You get all of your menus back. I for one love the
|>|>middle mouse button pan and would like to keep it.
|>|>
|>|>Have you considered getting a swiss army type mouse with more than 3 buttons?
|>|>
|>|>Regards.
|>|>
|>|>
|>
|>James Maeding
|>Civil Engineer and Programmer
|>jmaeding - athunsaker - com
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com