Single pole - single phase panel schedule

[jmlarias]

Hello everyone, I've been trying (really hard) to get a switchboard and some panels to schedule the information I need. My first problem is that the panelboards work at 230V (from Line to neutral) (Not Line to Line). I changed the schedules in all ways possibles and I cannot seem to arrive to get the panels to be assigned to Phase A only. I can make the panel schedule to show only the load changing the panel schedule options but hidden rest my second problem. I have 4 panels, single phase each one, and all identical. When I schedule the switchboard, there's always loads in both Phase A and Phase B in the same panel. I know the problem may not be resolved trough the schedule but I'd really like to know how to create my panels single phase with only one phase and/or how to assign him the phase correctly Here is a pic of what my schedules look like. By the way, All my 1ø elements have the poles set to 1.

[jmlarias]

Helle again everybody. Here I post you a picture of my settings (Part of the just in case).

[jmlarias]

Well thanks Corey for the mail. Up until now I thought I had resolved the problem but, no I haven't. I have a theory at least of what MAY be the problem. What comes to my mind is the possibility that ALL single phase systems are being treated like 3 wire systems, even when we select the 2 wire single phase system in the Distribution System dialog in the Electric Settings. If my theory is right, the 2 in the wire quantity in the dialog previously mentioned doesn't have any use at all. Maybe is my 2013 version that is buggy but I'd like to know if someone has ever succeeded in using a single phase 2 wire distribution system. ( I really hope that someone has and that I am being a little bit paranoid here ) [ Sometimes it happens : ) ]

[CoreyDaun]

To start, your definition of a "single-phase" system may differ from that of the American definition, which Revit follows. I will quote from >this< other thread:

---

sparkie001 wrote:

"In the US, with two hots 'A' and 'B' and a Neutral 'N' is considered "single-phase":

1 - Some say it's to differentiate it from old 2-phase systems where the phase angles were 90 degrees apart

2 - Because you only get one sine waveform when you put an oscilloscope across hot-hot or hot-neutral.

3 - Because you can only connect single-phase loads to it.

If you use a search engine you'll get another 100 answers."

---

Given that, it does not appear to be technically possible to create a fluent truly "single-phase" (AØ only) in Revit at this time (as of Revit 2014). Take a peek at the attached pdf. This is a quickly hashed-together work-around that requires quite a bit of labor to set up and then some more to maintain it. Let me know if what is shown in the pdf file is satisfactory, and that I am not completely misunderstanding this issue. If it is and you think it would be worth the extra effort to achieve this, let me know and I'll explain this in detail.

[jmlarias]

YES ! ! If I could make it like that, It would be perfect. I see that all panels have only one phase and in the panel heads up the loads are well distributed. How did you do that?? BTW The concepts of single phase 2 poles (like 120/240 = LN/LL ) and single phase one pole (like 120 LN) are the same everywhere. I just happen to live in France but where I come from, we use the 120/240 the same way as you do. I did not have this problem at home. I would really appreciate to know how did you manage to get that together. Jesus

[CoreyDaun]

The basic premise of this work-around is that the loads are connected to the proper phase of the Panel, but the actual Circuit Numbers are rubbish. The Circuit Numbers must be done manually, more or less. The circuit section of the Panel Schedules are actually two Electrical Circuit Schedules (see below). I shall attach a sample Project file (Revit 2014) as well as walk though this cumbersome process.

#1. Prepare the Panel and Circuit Electrical Devices

The first thing to do is to select the single-phase Panels and change "Max #1 Pole Breakers" to double what you want it to be. This will account for the complete disuse of the B Phase. Next, create a Panel Schedule using your single-phase Panel Schedule Template, which will show A/B Phases. Prior to circuiting, place a SPACE into every B Phase load and lock it. I just click on the first line, hit "Assign Space", then "Lock", hit the down arrow twice, and repeat. Now create your Electrical Circuits and all of them will only connect to the A Phase.

One of the downsides to this method will be the application of Spaces and Spares, since the circuit section of the Panel Schedule will not be used. So, attached is a Family called "Electrical Proxy Load" which contains an Electrical Connector and parameters. The Category of this Family has been changed to 'Electrical Fixtures'. Place an instance of this and connect one to the Panel to represent each Spare or Space.

#2. Alternate Circuit Numbers

Of course, by omitting the B Phase, the Circuit Numbers will skip, so we cannot use the Circuit Numbers assigned by Revit. The first thing to do is to add a Shared Parameter (Integer), named something like "CKTnumber1Ø", as a Project Parameter that applies to both the Electrical Fixtures and the Electrical Circuits Categories. Add this Shared Parameter to an Electrical Fixtures Tag in order to report the "correct" Circuit Number. Note that it is not possible to do this using the Wires Category.

A Schedule will be utilized to control the new Circuit Numbers. Create a new Electrical Circuit Schedule and include any Fields you wish but be sure to at least include "Panel", "Circuit Number", and your Shared Parameter. Set the Sorting/Grouping to "Panel" (Header) and "Circuit Number". The formatting doesn't matter, but you can hide the "Panel" Field. Hit 'OK'. Here is part of the manual labor; the Schedule will be sorted by the wonky Revit Circuit Numbers. In the column for your Shared Parameter, just enter the values 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. all the way down.

Another Schedule must be created and managed in the exact same way, except that this one will be an "Electrical Fixture Schedule". This is duplicate work, but it is the only way I have found to represent the new Circuit Numbers on the electrical plans.

#3. Creating the Panel Schedule

Duplicate your normal single-phase Panel Schedule Template and name with the suffix "Header Only" and edit this Template. For all of the Circuit Rows below the header: remove all Parameters possible (and replace the column header text), remove all borders and shading, set the text to 1/512" (but no smaller) and justified to Top Left. Under 'Set Template Options', set the "Number of slot shown:" to Fixed Value. This exact number will have to be tweaked later to get the appropriate gap size.

Create a new Electrical Circuit Schedule named "CKTs [Panel] Odd" and include "Panel" and the same Fields that would be shown in your Panel Schedule (in that order); use your Shared Parameter in place of the normal Circuit Number. Also, create a Calculated Value named "EvenCKT" with the formula:

CKTnumber1Ø / 2 = roundup(CKTnumber1Ø / 2)    where "CKTnumber1Ø" is the name of your Shared Parameter.

Set the Filter to "Panel" "equals" and enter a specific panel name. Set the second Filter rule to be "EvenCKT" "equals" "no". Sort by your Shared Parameter. Hide the "Panel" and "EvenCKT" Fields. Set the Appearance to match your Panel Schedule and disable "Show Title" and "Show Headers".

Open a Panel Schedule View and set the Template to the "Header Only" Template. Place it on a Sheet View, and then place the newly created Electrical Circuit Schedule into the gap of the Panel Schedule. Adjust the column widths to match the Panel Schedule's widths, it will take up half of the horizontal width of the Panel Schedule. Once this is set, duplicate the "ODD CKTs" Schedule, reverse the order of the Fields, and modify the second Filter to "EvenCKT" "equals" "Yes". Place it and the column widths will be correct. Modify the Panel Schedule Template to adjust the gap as needed.

These "ODD" and "EVEN" Electrical Circuit Schedules must be duplicated for each applicable Panel. Just modify the specified Panel Name in the Schedule's Filter. It's very easy after the first ones are created - you only have to correct the column sizes once.

Phew!

[Martin__Schmid]

Funny... I was just contemplating this issue the other day, as a similar question was asked by one of our Technical Specialists in Brazil.  Something came to me that might work; on the surface, it seems to.  See the attached, and see if it works as expected.  

[CoreyDaun]

Interesting, I think I see how this works now. So, if Electrical Circuits are connected to a single-pole Switchboard Panel, all of the loads connect to the A Phase, but if those same Circuits are connect to a single-pole Branch Panel, then they will connect to the A and B Phases as appropriate.

When I tested this option earlier, I had connected several Electrical Circuits to my Branch Panel and then edited the Family to change it to a Switchboard Panel. The Switchboard Schedule looked correct, but the Circuits were still connected to the A and B Phases. I just did the reverse in your Project file; I edited your Panel and changed it to a Branch Panel and then the connected load to the B Phase read zero (see image) but the total Panel Load was correct.

So in essesnce, this method is the best option so long as the Panel is defined as a Switchboard before circuiting.

[Martin__Schmid · Accepted solution]

The reason this works is that a Switchboard will always populate circuits starting from the first phase... e.g., even if you have a 3-phase switchboard, and connect a bunch of 1-pole devices to it, they will all be on Phase A.  This is based on an assumption that you’ll always use 3-pole loads… it doesn’t give you the flexibility to select what phase to put things in.

Circuiting for 1-pole branch circuit panels wonky, as you found Revit will put things on A and B.. further, there is no way to hide or disable the ‘B’ column.. Your only options in the schedule template: For Single Phase Panels: () hide column for third phase () Show but disable column for third phase… inferring that it always assumes a line-to-line single phase condition.  Provides no flexibility for the line-to-neutral case.  Both of these limitations are easily overcome w/ the Part Type = Switchboard option.

[jmlarias]

W O W ! ! Two great people helped me out ! I was really shocked and impressed at the beggining when I found this problem, things got worse when I saw nothing but darkness and mist in this issue. I thank a lot to Corey for his solution, not only helped me to find a way out from the cliff. In the process I learned how to connect some dots I had floating around in the issue. The funniest moment arrived when I saw Martin's solution. I was killing mouses with nuclear artillery and suddenly here came a solution really quick and easy. Thank you Martin...

[Martin__Schmid]

Glad to help out... can you please let me know where you are located?  Just curious where you have the need for a 1-pole L-N panel.  We don't hear about it too often, but it comes up occasionally... so I'm wondering what country content packs we may want to provide this for out-of-the-box.

Cheers-

MS

[jmlarias]

France. But when I studied and lived until not much ago in Dominican Republic and it was not rare to see a lot of single phase (2 wires) LN distribution systems.

[russellvee]

Busta01 said he was from South Africa in this thread. I thought it was interesting that they do it this way. If you have 4 equally loaded distribution panels, one leg of your switchboard feeder is going to have twice the load of the other two legs. Seems like it could lead to trouble.

[jmlarias]

And here in France I haven't seen the first 2P single phase panel.

[jmlarias]

It's not as simple as that. You would have the same problem if you had 4 single phase 240 panels, with the same power distribution. Most of the clients are connected to the network in single phase 230V LN and the power balance is checked really close by the local distribution company (GRDF) with telereporting systems where needed. It is always needed to compensate the power in the third phase. And now that I think about it, it is much (MUCH) difficult to balance a circuit where there's needed to balance not only the phases in the transformer ( each 120V ) and ALSO the third phase. There's a lot of room for debate here but if I had the option from the beggining to make the whole network of a country from zero, I'd choose the European method IF the main problem would be the Balance of phases. From there you erase the balance of the 120V and concentrate only in the 3Ø (208V there or 400V here). But in the end, there's always the need and obligation to balance the loads and for that a careful study must be made to foresee the pros and cons. Even a 100% balanced circuit in theory could be totally unbalanced when connected due to the habits of the users.

[Martin__Schmid]

jmlarias-- are you saying you don't see 2P single phase panels, but you *do* see 1P single phase panels?

[jmlarias]

Exactly. When I arrived first here I already knew the architecture of the local networks but after some weeks, I read a book where the they call that configuration "couplage à point milieu sortie" and it was proposed as a security measure. The idea would be to reduce the contact voltage taking a reference point midway of the secondary winding and use it as reference for the protection wire. I dont say that it does not exist as a principal mean of distribution or in very specific situations, but I can tell you that it is not common 2P. I've read the local low tension (50V - 1000V) normes and I guarantee you that you will not find a lot of references of the subject (only MENTIONED once) in the whole document.

[Martin__Schmid]

Thanks... and what voltage is used in France?  nominal 400 L-L and 230 L-N?

[jmlarias]

The nominal voltages most used are: 230V for 1Ø, 400/230V for three phase low voltage applications. For the MV we have here 20kV (LL) In some really specific cases, you may find 2P systems for autotransformers or for security applications but it's seldom used.

[Anonymous]

In a related question is there a way to rename the "B Phase" to "C" as in a 120/240V high leg delta configuration?