Nested Family with Generic Annotation

[smbrennan]

I'm trying to create a family with nested components. It's a floorbox that has Power, AV, and Data. Each of those 3 elements is going to be a nested family, assigned to a model category so that they can be hidden & half-toned appropriately for the view. The parent family is going to be a Generic Model. Within each of the nested families, I have Generic Annotations for their symbol. So here's what I have so far:

Floor Box Family

• Receptacle Family (Face-Based, Shared)
  • Receptacle Generic Annotation
• AV Family (Face-Based, Shared)
  • AV Generic Annotation
• Data Family (Face-Based, Shared)
  • Data Generic Annotation

My problem is getting the generic annotations to show up in the project. They display in the family just fine, but when loaded into the project, they don't display. The only other post I've come across in the forums is this one, but the solution didn't work for me.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-architecture-forum/visibility-problem-with-generic-annotation-i...

Has anyone had an issue with this before? 

[kadmonkee]

have you created types for each represented generic annotative family?

then apply a yes / no parameter to each type to be visible or not.

• Receptacle Family (Face-Based, Shared) = Type of Family
  • Receptacle Generic Annotation     =  a yes / no parameter
• AV Family (Face-Based, Shared)
  • AV Generic Annotation
• Data Family (Face-Based, Shared)
  • Data Generic Annotation

[Anonymous]

There are cascading parameters that need to be linked. Can you share the .rfa file with us? I can most certainly troubleshoot this for you. 

[RobDraw]

Isn't there a better category than Generic Model for this?

[fabiosato]

Hello,

Generic model category will show in halftone if you select any MEP discipline, I would rather use conduit fittings for the box, multi-port part type.

When I create such kind of component, I nest the annotations in the main host, not in a nested family.

[smbrennan]

---

@kadmonkee wrote:

have you created types for each represented generic annotative family?

then apply a yes / no parameter to each type to be visible or not.

---

My intent is not to use Yes/No Parameters to control the visibility, unless the type doesn't require it. My issue is getting any of the generic annotations to display. 

---

@Anonymous wrote:

There are cascading parameters that need to be linked. Can you share the .rfa file with us? I can most certainly troubleshoot this for you. 

---

I'm not trying to link parameters together (at least not yet). Right now I'm just trying to get everything to display before adding yes/no parameters. 

---

@fabiosato wrote:

Generic model category will show in halftone if you select any MEP discipline, I would rather use conduit fittings for the box, multi-port part type.

When I create such kind of component, I nest the annotations in the main host, not in a nested family.

---

I do not like using the MEP Disciplines. I have other families that I categorize as Generic Models, so I use the Coordination Discipline for all of my views. The purpose behind using the Generic Model category, is is that the floorbox can display black in all views. I am nesting the annotations is another category so that I can halftone as needed.

Ultimately, here's what I'm visualizing in my mind that I want to see:

Power Plan:

Floorbox is Black

Receptacle is Black

Data is Halftone

AV is Halftone

Data Plan

Floorbox is Black

Receptacle is Halftone

Data is Black

AV is Black. 

The file is attached for anyone who has the time to help figure this one out. Thanks in advance!

[Anonymous]

Working on it now. Sit tight!

[Anonymous]

Is this in 2018?

[fabiosato]

Hello,

I changed your family and the nested families, each symbol in a different subcategory.

[smbrennan]

Fabiosato, thanks for that workaround. I am trying to minimize the number of nested sub-categories in my template. While this solution works, it adds another step to managing views/view templates. 

I am curious though, maybe the generic model does something to the nested electrical components so that they're not visible in the project? I'm going to explore this some more and see what I can come up with. 

Also, the electrical fixture needed to remain as it was, because I need to be able to circuit to this device (without using the OOTB Electrical Connector family, or anything similar).

[fabiosato]

Hello,

AFAIK annotations in nested families does not appear in the host family when it is placed in the project.

[Judy_S]

Hi, smbrennan,

I'm Judy, a Revit specialist; I was looking at this conversation about your floor box family and it sounds like fabiosato's reworking of your family helped solve the issue you had. If so, please remember to click the Accept as Solution button so that others can find this information more easily.

With regard to the electrical connector in the nested family, it's true that nested electrical connectors are not visible in the project; they need to be placed in the host family. As you probably know, you can add electrical parameters to the host family and link the parameters in this connector to these family parameters.

Are you all set now, or is there anything else I can do to help?

Thanks, and looking forward to hearing from you!

Best,

Judy_S

[smbrennan]

Judy,

Technically, my answer is not resolved. What Fabio provided was merely a workaround. What he's done is found a way to make the concept work by adding more steps to view management. 

My whole reasoning for this is because I wanted a single object that hosts electrical and data devices, just as it is when I'm physically holding the floor box that's being installed. Having the generic annotations nested, would ideally inherit the model category in the view. So the Generic Model is always black. On a power plan, data devices are half toned. On data plans, power devices are half toned. I want to control that in one spot and one spot only. Not make several dozen sub categories to get the same result. 

I apologize for coming off so strong. For the past 6 years I'm always being pushed towards workarounds. I can come up with my own workarounds no problem (not discrediting Fabio, what he provided works - just not to my satisfaction). What I want to see is less workarounds and more change in Revit to perform as expected by ALL users. With that being said, I have already posted this to the Revit Ideas.  

With regard to the connector, I think you mis-typed. I have several families with nested connectors that are accessible within a project. It's the generic annotation that I am struggling to see. 

[Judy_S]

Hi, smbrennan,

Thanks for your detailed reply, and my apologies for the confusion when I misread your comment about the electrical connector.

Just to clarify for the sake of other people who may be reading this conversation:

- The graphics of nested families (such as data devices, electrical fixtures, etc.) can indeed be set per view (and controlled with a view template)

- Generic annotations nested inside nested families will not be visible in the project; they need to be nested in the host family itself to be visible.

- Nested generic annotations will display according to the settings of their host family, unless you create different subcategories and assign the lines appropriately (data, electrical fixtures, etc.); then you can control the graphics of each subcategory separately.

You can set up these subcategories in your project template and control their visibility in the view templates created for the different types of plans you need. View templates will give you the "one place" in which to control the graphics of these elements in your view. Yes, it's a bit of work to set up, but once done, this will be available in all future projects. You can also use Transfer Project Standards to get your line styles and view templates into current projects that may not have these settings.

I hope this is helpful! I'm glad you posted your thoughts on the Revit ideas page, which is a great way to let our developers know what you're thinking and how you'd like the product to work better for you. Please feel free to encourage others to vote for your idea - the more votes an idea gets, the more likely it is to be seen as an important issue to our development team. 

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know. If this answers your question, please click the Accept as Solution button so others can find the answer more easily. 

Cheers,

Judy_S

[GPnmulder]

Getting to the party late. Actually, generic annotations nested inside nested families can be visible inside the project. That is a workflow we use for our floorboxes and other items with discipline overlap/coordination (security/telecom, AV/telecom, etc.). We just don't use the generic model category. It took me a while to figure out why your family wasn't working.

The family you posted had the nested families correctly set to be shared. However, I believe the problem is due to the fact that your generic model family was not face-based but your nested families were. I don't know for sure, but I think it revolves around the magical parameter 'Maintain Annotation Orientation', as described here: https://andekan.com/annotationsymbols-for-lighting-fixtures-showing-in-plan/. I have used this approach for lighting fixture, some electrical equipment, and as described above 'embedding' data devices in other family categories. I have attached a simple face-based generic model as an example that appears to work, if I understand correctly. Conversely, I only tested briefly, but I am not sure why generic annotation nested in level based nested families are not visible in project. 

However, all is not peachy keen. I believe this to be a proper BIM workflow for engineering trades but these 'solutions' are cumbersome and not user friendly. They also present some secondary issues to consider: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/allow-nested-shared-families-to-report-the-level-paramete...

[smbrennan · Accepted solution]

Based on GPnmulder's reply, I found the solution.

I don't know exactly what did it, here's the new setup explained:

Primary family inserted into Project: Floorbox (Unhosted, Generic Model). This contains 3x nested families.

The 3x nested families are also unhosted, but categorized as 'Electrical Fixture' and 'Data Device' with the respective AV, Tele/Data, Duplex/Quad annotation symbols nested in. That family is set to 'Shared' AND 'Maintain Annotation Orientation' checked.

The symbols being set to Shared gave me the ability to create a project parameter (type based) to separate AV and Tele/Data, thus giving me the control I needed to work into my view templates. 

[Russell_Palmer]

I found this thread while trying to solve my own "annotation" issues and wanted to add my discoveries to it. I have my exit sign family (hosted) that looks nice in 3D and in Navis, but looking at it in an RCP view left me wondering what type of sign it was. My challenge was to add the symbols on top to indicate single-sided, double-sided, and which way the arrows pointed depending on what type of exit sign it was. I tried a Generic Annotation family nested into my exit sign family, but the size of it changed unacceptably with the scale of my family view and also with the scale of the project view (visible through VG and checking Generic Annotation). So Generic Annotation was out. Long story shorter, I used a Detail Item family for each of the filled regions (because you can't do filled regions in model families) that I needed visibility control over nested into my exit sign family, and I used Symbolic Lines in the exit sign family itself. Each Detail Item family had its own visibility checkbox in the exit sign family and each Symbolic Line had its own visibility checkbox. In the project VG Detail Items is on and I now have my exit sign with informational "annotation" sitting on top of it.

[youngblut]

Hey, Just letting you know I spent days trying to find a solution to Generic Annotation Label being visible in a Project from a Nested Family. This was the only solution that actually worked without creating a huge mess and making it almost impossible to others to have it permanently visible without having to do any work as well. Thank you.

[s.borello]

You need to apply visibility toggles in each of your annotation families... then you need to associate these to your model family... you could perhaps do a youtube search for "how to associate parameters within families"

[todd.shelby]

I have found that associating shared parameters within nested families is something most of our BIM instructors either glossed over or didn't explain. And once I learned how this all works it was like learning how a magic trick is performed.