Windows in multiple walls

[marcodebortoli]

Hi everyone,

I've been reading a lot about the multi wall approach = create a new wall type for each finishing, basically modeling as you build it.

In my project I have a very basic situation: CMU + exterior plaster + interior finish that may vary: tiles or plaster.

So I modeled 3 wall types, one onto the other and joined them.

When I insert a door or window, the opening cut correctly through the 3 walls but:

- in plan and section, walls do not wrap at inserts (obviously...) so the plaster do not return as when I use a single wall type with 3 layers = not a good detail

- in 3D you can see the lines of each wall and the CMU is shown (because it is butting to the window, obviously), no plaster is shown on the four sides of the window opening

Is there a way to solve this problem without using a window trim? My clients don't want any trim on w&d

I guess the answer is in the way the family is built...

I have tried to nest a new rough (empty) opening into the window family but the result is the window floating into a larger void.

I've added a plaster extrusion to this void but, when inserted, it does not cut trough all the 3 walls = not a good detail....

I am surprised that all the people that advocate for the multi wall approach have never encountered this problem.

If so, I could not find a clear explanation on how to solve it on may forum.

Please help with detailed instructions on how to build the window family and/or share your family so I can study it.

Thank you for your help! 

[GustavoUbriaco]

Hi!

There are many possibles workarounds here

1 model finish walls in that openings the problem is the bottom face in windows ( is a Nightmare the wall unions) I don't recommend 

2 and i think the best is create a normal wall and create parts then is an artesanal work fix the model but is LOD 350 or 400 hard work is included

result

for finishes

draw the border, help from wireframe views and temporary 

then extrude that created part to cover that face

Reveal all elements

[marcodebortoli]

Thank you Gustavo, the solution looks great, although time consuming.

Is there an "automatic" method? I mean editing the door/window family.

I was experimenting by nesting a clear opening into the family (= the rough opening) and then add a sweep or extrusion to represent the plaster on the inner sides of the openings.

Basically what you did but nested inside the door family

Problem is that that geometry will not join with the finish wall type once inserted and then I'll have to pick lines to make them invisible to look ok in 3D.

Your method seems to allow the opening faces to be actual walls, not just representations, which is great.

Unless your extrusion cannot be considered a wall.

However, the door trims help hiding all the lines in 3D - but my clients don't want doors/windows trims...

Thank you anyway for the input, it's great and well explained and detailed

[ToanDN]

So you just want the exterior and interior finishes wrap back to the window cross multiple walls?

[GustavoUbriaco]

How about to model a 3rd wall finish but with the same tickness that all walls the same process that you have join all walls

where 1 2 and 3 have the same material the 3rd one will be the door host

Easier I think so only some sums and rests to match the finish thickness

[marcodebortoli]

Ideally yes

[marcodebortoli]

Very interesting proposal! Tricky and smart, I like it!

I wonder how it works with windows and if it's much more work but, Gustavo, you may be on to something with great potential.

So far the best result is from nesting an opening into the window family, creating the rough opening, and add an extrusion to fill the gap between rough and window opening. Then it's just boring to turn outer lines into invisible lines - here's only the top line made invisible 

It works ok in plan and the rough frame thickness is parametric

But I will explore Gustavo approach too

[GustavoUbriaco · Accepted solution]

Windows the same procces

with base and top ofssets in tricky wall

to make it easy and don't use line work to make the unions invisible remember join all walls 

[ToanDN]

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@marcodebortoli wrote:

Ideally yes

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You can create a shared architectural column family, nest it in the window family, it will join with the host walls when you place the window in the project.  You may need to play with join order to get the desired result.

I personally prefer the approach @GustavoUbriaco has suggested, create a composite wall type to host the windows.

[marcodebortoli]

Thank you Toan

This is great, it looks exactly how I want it to.

I am not an expert user (decent though) and my result is not like yours 😞

The column takes the wall host material and I don't know how to "play with join order".

Can you share your family so I can study it?

Thank you

[ToanDN]

What version can you open?

[marcodebortoli]

I have RVT2018 but will upgrade to 2022 if needed - soon or later I will have to anyway 🙂

[ToanDN · Accepted solution]

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@marcodebortoli wrote:

I have RVT2018 but will upgrade to 2022 if needed - soon or later I will have to anyway 🙂

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Sorry I don't have 2018.  Attached is a 2022 file.

[barthbradley]

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Wall wrapping???  What is there to wrap if you modeled the wall layers as separate types?  That doesn’t compute. Besides that, wall wrapping is a purely cosmetic. It’s a graphical representation only. It has no BIM value. If you are modeling Wall layers as separate Wall Types, I would think you would be modeling the wrapping with Wall Types as well.  Pretty much what wrapping is in the real world. 

....model the wrapping at Heads and Sills using Floors of the same thickness and material as the wrapping Wall Type(s).  

[marcodebortoli]

Thank you very much Toan!

I'll install RVT2022 and keep on learning. thanks

[marcodebortoli]

Windows and doors reveals/wraps are not purely cosmetics as structural openings are needed for construction drawings. 

I am with you though that there are ways around it.

And yes, with separate walls you should/can model the reveals as separate walls.

I was just trying to find a way to make the process more automatic by using families instead of modeling the reveals in the project, group them and copy them - which I think it's what you suggest

[barthbradley]

I think you misunderstood me. I never mentioned “reveals”. What I said was that REVIT Interior/Exterior Wall Wrapping at Inserts/Ends is purely cosmetic, meaning that they are not quantifiable. If you want to include wrapping in your OTOs/MTOs, then you need to model the wraps using Walls, Floors or other methods such as In-Place or Loadable Families. That’s the point I was making in response to your statement that “walls do not wrap at inserts”, and to your question “Is there a way to solve this problem without using a window trim?”.   

But yes, I agree: wraps are NOT cosmetic in the real world - nor should they be in the BIM world.  

[marcodebortoli]

Hi Barth,

I understand your point and agree

Maybe I just used the "wrap at inserts" as a reference to normal wall types behavior in Revit;  I just wanted to clarify that windows families, when inserted into multi-walls, do loose the graphic detail that normal wall types have, which is a correct representation and they are useful to take structural openings dimensions.

[barthbradley]

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@marcodebortoli wrote:

Hi Barth,

I understand your point and agree

Maybe I just used the "wrap at inserts" as a reference to normal wall types behavior in Revit;  I just wanted to clarify that windows families, when inserted into multi-walls, do loose the graphic detail that normal wall types have, which is a correct representation and they are useful to take structural openings dimensions.

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What do you mean by "graphic detail".  I'm not following.  Inserting a Window into a Compound-Layered Wall or multiple separate Walls (via "cut with Void when Loaded"),  doesn't have any affect on "graphics".   

Maybe you're wrestling with Openings? Are your Door/Window Families not using Voids? For this workflow (e.g. sandwiching together Wall Types), it is better to use Voids in lieu of Openings and Cut the layered Wall Types with the Door/Window in the Project -- and control your trim offsets and jamb extensions parametrically. 

...one other point here: if you are using Revit Door and Window Content, you will also need to change the Floor Plan Symbolic Linework/Masking Region/Detail in the Family. None of the Model geometry is visible in Plan/RCP. Only that symbolic representation.   Maybe that's what you mean by "graphic detail".  You could always delete all that Symbolic stuff in Plan View and then change the geometry's Visibility Settings. Check the box next to Plan/RCP .   

[marcodebortoli]

Barth, 

In my first post I've shown what happens when I insert my windows family into a "sandwich" wall

Windows families templates come with openings and, when inserted in sandwich wall, there's no reveal anymore.

This happens in plan and section - it's the problem I'm trying to solve.

Please share your window/door families, made with voids, so I can study your approach. 

Thanks