Shafts

[Anonymous]

We are having a problem with the Shaft tool in Revit in our office, so I am trying to understand it more completely.  We have pipes running inside wall assemblies.  We would like to cut a hole in the wall assembly parts, floor, ceiling - everything that the pipe passes through.  Is there a certain workflow or recommended way of using the Opening tools that will help us with this process?

Thanks,

Jessica

[Anonymous]

One possible way would be to nest a Void into the Pipe family, then use Cut Geometry. I'm not sure the nested Void

would cut walls, floors, ceilings, etc. automatically when the Pipe was placed into the model?

Are you modeling the Pipes? If so, are they modeled in Revit Arch.? or Revit MEP?

[Anonymous]

I don't think there is a way to nest a void into a pipe family.  It's a system family, so you can't really do too much to edit the family, just the Type Properties.  I am personally the one who is modeling the pipes in our office.  My coworkers are the architectural/ structural experts, but we are really struggling with this aspect of Revit.  We are all using the hybrid Revit 2013 from the Design Suite, so it's Arch/ Struct/ MEP all -n-one.

[Alfredo_Medina]

Why is it necessary to cut the objects that the pipe passes through? Why not simply model the pipe as any other riser for a typical system?

[Anonymous]

When you model pipes in Revit, they don't actually "cut" holes in architectural or structural items that they pass through.  So #1, it shows as an interference and #2, we are constructing modular buildings that are constructed differently from your "typical" structure.  They are constructed in a factory.  We want to show all of the holes that need to be cut in any of the lumber, flooring, ceiling, etc. because these need to be roughed-out for the builders before they run the piping through the building, which is also done in the factory.

Thanks,

Jess

[Anonymous]

Thanks for giving more detailed info. In this case, if the Pipes are precisely laid out and once the desgn is finalized,

you could just use in-place voids and cut geometry at all the penetrations. Time consuming indeed--but it sounds like perhaps the modular/shop-fabricated delivery may require this level of modeling. Change management would be very difficult and tedious--not what Revit is all about!

I do not know of a way to automatically cut the holes with RMEP Pipes, as you mention they are system families.

Perhaps if you created custom generic model pipes you could nest the voids into them?

Either way, you have a special circumstance for which Revit is not the best tool. Maybe using Inventor would

actually be a better way? I am not sure how it would "scale" to a modular building scope of work?

It sounds like digital fabrication deliverables are required? Is there a CNC process involved?

You could use more "traditional" Revit modeling ( Arch for Walls, Floors, Roof, Ceilings, etc. and MEP for Piping)

and then use Navisworks for clashes and 4D and 5D downstream uses.

Sorry I do not have any real solutions here. I think the process you are involved in is a bit beyond Revit's capabilities,

unless someone knows something I don't!

[Anonymous]

Ha!  You are definitely correct in that the process that we are involved in is beyond Revit capabilities, but right now it is our only choice.  I'm just trying to wrap my head around the function of the Openings/ Shafts tool.  It seems like this would be a useful tool for what we need, but we can't get it to function the way we think it should. 

[Anonymous]

Yes. You would not design automobiles or airplanes with Revit either--so your product crosses the line between

"building" and "mass-produced/factory fabricated" product.

The Shaft and Wall Opening tools are only rectangular as far as I know, so cutting round holes is not possible.

(Edit: Alfredo has correctly "corrected me"--round shapes are possible.)

At the end of the day, you must determine what output/deliverable is required for all of your processes.

In a "traditional" building design project, an "Architect" would provide a BIM, then a "Contractor" would provide detailed shop drawings and fabrication documents ( digital and/or hard-copy. )

Revit and other software apps are beginning to blur the line here. I still think Inventor might be a viable app for your

purposes--although I do not know if its scalability would work for modular building-scale work?

Good luck!

[Alfredo_Medina · Accepted solution]

In this illustration, the first image on the upper left corner shows the location of a shaft, which is a circle of 6" in diameter. The other image on the lower left corner shows the location of a generic model family that contains just a void cylinder of 6" in diameter. The family was set to "cut with voids when loaded". The result, as you can see in the image on the right is this:

The shaft automatically cut floors, ceiling and roof, but could not cut the wall.

The void family can cut floors, ceiling, roof, and walls. It requires the use of Cut geometry for every cut, though.

[Alfredo_Medina]

In conclusion, I don't agree that this request of a circular shaft that passes through different types of objects is "beyond Revit's capabilities".

[Anonymous]

I believe that what the OP was asking for is an automated way for all Piping to cut thru all elements which they penetrate. That is beyond Revit's capability.

Creating Shafts, using in-place voids, etc. are solutions--but are not fully automatic and require a lot of time and effort

especially when piping systems are edited/revised.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, you are right Cliff.  It's just one more item to mark on the list of things you have to check and not forget to edit.  There are a lot of those things in Revit, that "could" or "should" be automated, but aren't.  There's a LOT to keep track of on the MEP side. 

Thanks for everyone's help on the subject.

Jess

[Alfredo_Medina]

In that case, every piece of sanitary pipe that goes through a slab would be an interference.... Every segment of domestic water that goes inside a wall would be an interference... Every duct that connects to a diffuser in a ceiling would be an interference... If it was like that, no work could be done in Revit MEP at all, if every time a pipe goes through something Revit had to actually cut the object.

[Anonymous]

That is actually the case with most of Revit MEP items, if you run sanitary pipe through concrete, it does show as an interference.  If you show a piece of domestic water piping in the wall, it shows as an interference with the framing inside of the wall.  If you show a duct main going through a wall, it shows as an interference with that wall, it doesn't cut a hole.  There's an app out there from Tools 4 Revit called "Cut Opening" or something, that you can purchase, which will cut these holes, but again... it's a lot of upkeep.

[Alfredo_Medina]

It seems to me that what is needed here is a way to differentiate between types of interferences. Some are necessary, some are problematic. Not every interference should be a problem.

[Anonymous]

As I mentioned in one of the replies above, I think an application such as Navisworks which has purpose-built tools

for clash detection may be a better solution for the OP. Revit's clash / intereference tool finds EVERY instance where two elements are intersecting--and the results are not very helpful, as there are too many and the list becomes overwhelming. As Alfredo points out, Revit needs a way to filter the "clashes". And I agree, there are "good clashes" and "bad clashes".

The OP's situation warrants a special circumstance and toolset for a mass-production/factory/pre-fab delivery method.

Revit is still optimized for a more "traditional" field-built delivery method (although the line is beginning to blur here quickly as digital fabrication from BIM takes hold.)

[Anonymous]

Question on this!

I have created the Void family and I have it in my model.  However, when I try to cut multiple things with that void, I can't.  I can only get the ceiling geometry to cut.  After I cut the ceiling, the void family "disappears", a hole is cut in the ceiling, but where I want to cut the rest of the items (wall framing, floor, etc.), I can't.  The void seems to be gone.  I'm not sure how to explain it, hopefully this makes sense.

Thanks,

Jess

[Anonymous]

Never mind my question.  Got it!  It was because the other elements that I wanted to cut were on Worksets that were Owned by another user.  Once he relinquished all of those components, it worked like a charm!  Woohoo!

[Anonymous]

Why cant shaft openings cut thru slab edge?

[ToanDN]

Cut first the add slab edges.