Rotate error: "Can't rotate element into this position."

[Anonymous]

I have a simple family comprised of an extruded angle shape.

While I can rotate this freely in the family editor, when I try to rotate it in the project I get a "Can't rotate element into this position." error in Revit 2011.

I have many other similar families that don't have this restriction and this was built from one of those.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Jon

[Anonymous]

This was exactly what I needed to make mine work, thanks.

[Anonymous]

I'm rotating speakers, too. I find the results capricious - sometimes it works, sometimes not so much. Today, I have edited a (copy of) a previously-functioning family (that took hours to get working) having one parameter, "DOWN ANGLE". I have a reference line, running from the family origin toward the front. In left section, I can rotate it down, say, 10 degrees, align the end of the reference line to the two axes, drop an angular dimension in between the reference line and the plan axis and, assign it to the DOWN ANGLE parameter, open the family parameter properties page, exercise the DOWN ANGLE with some values and, voila, the reference line rotates about the origin, just as forums and tutorials say. I have previously discovered how to un-tick "always vertical". However, when I group the reference line with the speakers which, for simplicity, are represented as trapezoidal extrusions having another extrusion, representing a structural element called a "bumper", across the top, then the simple exercising goes upside down, literally. All of the extrusions, the dimension and the reference line rotate 180 degrees up over the plan axis. It should be noted that all of the extrusions are modeled below the reference plane, but moving everything up didn't fix the problem. I haven't left the family, yet! So, I tried making a family of one speaker and the bumper, showed its work plane as unassigned,disabled its reference level and set it to work-plane based, brought it into the array family, which only has the DOWN angle and the reference line (working well, I might add), and checked that the work plane was parallel to the page (Left) by showing and unshowing the work plane. As soon as I tried to rotate the nested family, without even grouping it to the reference line, Revit complained that it couldn't change the angle..

Why use a parameter? For a sports building, there are multiples of this family that get shoved around in design to accommodate sight lines for lights, television cameras, private boxes, etc. I need to efficiently adjust the elevation of the speaker array and its down angle to keep up.

I share the frustrations of other posters on this subject. I am not a Revit Jedi, only a benighted user who hopes to promote Revit in my business. Revit makes it possible to play in the sandbox with big architectural firms doing stadia, arenas and concert halls, since the big architects don't do AutoCAD anymore. My models are filled with parameters controlling all sorts of criteria and scheduling data for the team.

This is the only area that stumps me, again and again. So, please don't patronize the posters by saying if we were as well-versed in the minutiae of the program, we'd be off to the races. I know that. Instead, please accept that this is a tough problem and look a bit deeper.

Thank you.

[chrisplyler]

Yes, it's a learning curve. There are multiple possible solutions. I just made a speaker array as a test, using the Specialty Equipment category. It freely rotates, using the rotate tool, in plan view without using the methods put forth previously. I simply built it on the reference level plane instead of either the front/back or left/right planes. Just like you would with a piece of furniture or something. Except I built it below the level, so I can "hang" it from whatever level I want to hang it from in the project.

Quite frankly, the first time I might have attempted to make this as a 3D block in Autocad, without any help, it probably would have taken me two and a half hours to figure out also.

[Anonymous]

That's the easy part. Now, assign a parameter to an angular dimension and tilt the speakers parametrically. Still, pretty easy. But then try to insert a bumper bar as a family. It won't rotate. Let's say the bumper has an inverted "T" section, like the bracket that a Meyer makes for the JM-1P. The most efficient extrusion is from the front or back. It won't rotate. Making it as two extrusions in plan, a plate and a spine,, doesn't work, either. Another bumper I made, more like the old Apogee frames, was a bunch of square extrusions, like HSS, around the perimeter of the top of the box. It wouldn't rotate in elevation until I constructed it as an extrusion sketched in plan around the box, then extruded up. A more complex extrusion, but aligned with the extrusions of the speakers. This worked as an extrusion in the speaker family, but not as a separate family.

I've been using Specialty Equipment for scheduling reasons, but somebody said this family might be fixed vertically, even if I un-tick the vertical box. I'm now looking at the family template to see what's there.

________________________________

Dave Clark Consulting
dc@daveclarkconsulting.ca

O: 519.925.1039 (abandoning the land line)
M: 647.232.7518

555395 Mono- Amaranth Townline
Mono, ON
L9V 0Z1 Canada

The information and address list contained in the message header of this e-mail may be privileged and/or confidential. The sender does not waive any related rights or obligations. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than an intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this e-mail in error, please immediately advise DCC by return e-mail or otherwise then destroy it. Thank you.

[ckasefang]

Thanks for the follow-up.

Rotate is easy. The issue is when I am drawing a speaker array where each
element is tilted at a specific vertical angle relative to the element
above it things get difficult. Add to that the fact that the quantity of
elements is variable and the physical geometry of each element is highly
variable. For instance I just had to draw (in Autocad) an array with 9
elements: The top 3 were subwoofers (basically cubes) with the middle one
pointed backwards: easy. Next 4 were 7.5 degree cabinets (where the top
and bottom for a 7.5 degree angle - the top one is tilited 3.5 degrees up,
the 2nd is parallel to the first, the 3rd is tilted 5 degrees relative to
the 2nd and the 4th is tilted 7.5 degrees relative to the 3rd. Next we
have a 15 degree cabinet tilted 11.25 degrees relative tho the one above
and we finish with a 22.5 degree cabinet tilted 18.5 degrees relative to
the one above that. You have seen these in theatres and stadiums at
concerts.

It seems I would be best off creating a basic parametric element, which
has characteristics of a width, a depth a front height, a wedge
angle(defining the angle between the top surface and the bottom
surface)and a tilt. I assume I would then create a family for each unique
quantity of elements.




Curtis Kasefang
Theatre Consultants Collaborative, Inc.

519 Polk Street
Raleigh, NC 27604
T 919.929.7443 x103
T 919.546.0288 direct
F 866.279.2937
E ckasefang@theatrecc.com
www.theatrecc.com

[Anonymous]

Hey, Curt, I know who you are and I know that you get what I'm trying to do. Rotation is fine with raw extrusions. In the family editor, I can rotate an extrusion in left or right elevation (i.e., tilt up/down), assign an angle parameter and exercise it, but not if I save the extrusion as a family and insert it back in. The inserted version won't budge - it just turns orange and complains about constraints. I know how to draw and name reference planes and how to set them as work planes and how to show/un-show them. I'm using the family template Specialty Equipment. Have you got this to work? Dave

________________________________

Dave Clark Consulting
dc@daveclarkconsulting.ca

O: 519.925.1039 (abandoning the land line)
M: 647.232.7518

555395 Mono- Amaranth Townline
Mono, ON
L9V 0Z1 Canada

The information and address list contained in the message header of this e-mail may be privileged and/or confidential. The sender does not waive any related rights or obligations. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than an intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this e-mail in error, please immediately advise DCC by return e-mail or otherwise then destroy it. Thank you.

[chrisplyler]

Um... can you make the bumper bar a face-based family and host it right onto the speaker surface? Then if the speaker extrusion rotates the bumper goes along with it, no?

[ckasefang]

Absolutely - That is exactly how it works in meat space. The challenge is
the stack of speakers below the bumper. The complexity is in the variety
of sizes and shapes of speakers and the differing splays between each
speakers within a given stack.

My thought is if we can have each speaker within a stack be a generic
parametric form, individually addressable along with its tilt relative to
the speaker above within the stack I can have something I can work with.
This would solve line arrays.

Clusters are another hall of wax, but can likely be solved with similar
principals, at least for ones composed of horizontal arrays.

Otherwise it is much more expedient to build the stack within Autocad and
then pull it into Revit and rotate the stack as a whole

In my work 2 fundamental Revit assumptions do not apply:
1) Things hang vertically (so there is no need to tilt)
2) Floors are flat (Theatre audience floors can vary from a even slope, to
an isoquantic cure to a full on hollowed slab.


Curtis Kasefang
Theatre Consultants Collaborative, Inc.

519 Polk Street
Raleigh, NC 27604
T 919.929.7443 x103
T 919.546.0288 direct
F 866.279.2937
E ckasefang@theatrecc.com
www.theatrecc.com

[chrisplyler]

Gotcha. So I'm envisioning it in my mind, and I think you've got to figure out the primary heirchy if you're going to have multiple families. And I think you should have multiple families. Will it be one for each NUMBER OF SPEAKERS in the array? I'll bet that's the most logical. That way each family can have a known/predictable number of parameters at least.

[ckasefang]

I think that is correct, the downside being it is not unusual to change
the number of cabinets at a location in a design.

The upside being, I suspect, that is an order of magnitude simpler than
also having a variable quantity of elements, of variable dimensions
individually tilted and placed relative to each other's (bottom, as in not
static) edge.



Curtis Kasefang
Theatre Consultants Collaborative, Inc.

519 Polk Street
Raleigh, NC 27604
T 919.929.7443 x103
T 919.546.0288 direct
F 866.279.2937
E ckasefang@theatrecc.com
www.theatrecc.com

[Anonymous]

>From my perspective, the bumper is attached to the building structure above by a wire rope or chain hoist in a predictable and easily modeled way - the only variation being the length of the drop from the winch system or structure above. So, the quantity, type (may have varying physical shapes) and angular configuration of the boxes below the bumper are the big variables. Usually the hinge point is at the back of each box, so the bottom back edge of the upper box meets the upper back edge of the box below it. It's useful to think of how these things are assembled. The empty bumper frame is "floated" a couple of feet above the floor, then the top box is attached beneath it, then the rig is hoisted a couple of feet and the next box is attached below the first, and so on, until all the boxes are attached, then the whole rig is hoisted to "play" level. As each box is connected, its angular divergence from the box above is set by a locking mechanism according to a pre-determined plan. The divergence between boxes will almost always vary.

________________________________

Dave Clark Consulting
dc@daveclarkconsulting.ca

O: 519.925.1039 (abandoning the land line)
M: 647.232.7518

555395 Mono- Amaranth Townline
Mono, ON
L9V 0Z1 Canada

The information and address list contained in the message header of this e-mail may be privileged and/or confidential. The sender does not waive any related rights or obligations. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than an intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this e-mail in error, please immediately advise DCC by return e-mail or otherwise then destroy it. Thank you.

[ckasefang]

Exactly.

So the question is how to create the most versatile family to accommodate
all of the factors of variability in terms of element shape and tilt
within the line array because as we know tilt isn't something Revit does
well.


Curtis Kasefang
Theatre Consultants Collaborative, Inc.

519 Polk Street
Raleigh, NC 27604
T 919.929.7443 x103
T 919.546.0288 direct
F 866.279.2937
E ckasefang@theatrecc.com
www.theatrecc.com

[chrisplyler]

Okay I've played around a bit (see screencast video below) and I'm going to suggest the following:

1. A parametric bumper (or mounting bracket, or fixture, or whatever you want to call it). Use the basic Specialty Equipment family so it can simply host to a Level. Construct it hanging down below the level as you find appropriate. Use type parameters so you can create a few variations as desired. Units of substantailly different form probably need their own family, with with a few possible types in it as well. Mine is simply a sweep along an arc, but you could easily make a segmented, multi-angled bumper as well, or whatever you need. I don't know what they look like, so I just made a curved plate to bolt my speakers to for ease of experimentation.

2. A parametric speaker, consisting of simply an extrusion that you can change the size of and the angles of as neccessary to represent different speakers. Use a face-based generic model, and then change its family category to Specialty Equipment (this is preferred because there is no face-based Specialty Equipment family template file). Use type parameters to set up a few different types/sizes of speakers. Create a reference line with an angle parameter that on the front/back plane, and build the speaker, including its size and angle parameters, on the plane of the reference line, so that the whole thing can tilt up or down a bit after it's placed on the face of the bumper. In my screencast you can see that the default placement will be tangent to the face of the bumper, and then you can use the up/down tilt to adjust each one if necessary.

3. Place your bumper into a project on an upper level so that it hangs down. Place your speakers on it as desired. Position and angle them as desired. Select the whole mess and create an assembly. That way you can call it Speaker Assembly A or whatever, and create new instances of it. You can also create an Assembly View from the side with dimensions and angles and everything. You can make a few of them. Then you can change the speaker type and position on one assembly, and it will become Speaker Assembly B or whatever, and you can create more instances of it also, and create an Assembly view of it also. And you can schedule how many of each Assembly you have.

[Anonymous]

Chris, what family template is "standalone"?

________________________________

Dave Clark Consulting
dc@daveclarkconsulting.ca

O: 519.925.1039 (abandoning the land line)
M: 647.232.7518

555395 Mono- Amaranth Townline
Mono, ON
L9V 0Z1 Canada

The information and address list contained in the message header of this e-mail may be privileged and/or confidential. The sender does not waive any related rights or obligations. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than an intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this e-mail in error, please immediately advise DCC by return e-mail or otherwise then destroy it. Thank you.

[chrisplyler]

---

@Anonymous wrote:
Chris, what family template is "standalone"?

---

I'm afraid I do not understand the question.

[ckasefang]

Thanks for your effort on this.

Your solution is interesting, although not ideal.

These things are assembled from the top down and each element is hung from
the one above. The bumper mentioned is at the top. A well assembled line
array will always have the front of the cabinets aligned with the top of
one cabinet hard up against the bottom of the one above it. The pivot
point is the top center of the cabinet. This allows the horns in each
cabinet to interact in a predictable way and to for a linear source (as
opposed to a point source.)

(Showing my ignorance here). Is there a reason why we couldn't have the
insertion point of a speaker be top front center and have it hosted on the
bottom front center of the speaker above?

The image below show a simple 3 element array. Pivot points are at the red
arrows. You can see that the angle between the top 2 shown as 7.5*
between the adjacent surfaces is actually 0 between the faces. The next
pair below are tight to each other (0* between surfaces, but 11.25*
between faces.)




Curtis Kasefang
Theatre Consultants Collaborative, Inc.

519 Polk Street
Raleigh, NC 27604
T 919.929.7443 x103
T 919.546.0288 direct
F 866.279.2937
E ckasefang@theatrecc.com
www.theatrecc.com

[chrisplyler]

Okay. Then you probably want to build a face-based speaker family that attaches from the top instead of from the back. And you probably want to place them into the project each underneath the previous, as demonstrated in this screencast. Yes?

Use this link if the embedded screencast doesn't work for you here in the forum: http://autode.sk/1KpUOgz

[Anonymous]

That's exactly right. How did you define the parameter for the angle between the boxes? Btw, concrete sounds great!
I have a model going right now where I have successfully made some sideways-splayed cabinets into an array. The number of cabinets is controlled by a parametric number using visibility - they're all in the array, but only show themselves as needed. I have also hand-edited some cabinets in a "line array", as you've drawn. But, I haven't been able to use families, only extrusions, because of the rotation problems. I need to use families to capture the electrical, weight and other characteristics of the speaker cabinets. How can I show the picture to you?

________________________________

Dave Clark Consulting
dc@daveclarkconsulting.ca

O: 519.925.1039 (abandoning the land line)
M: 647.232.7518

555395 Mono- Amaranth Townline
Mono, ON
L9V 0Z1 Canada

The information and address list contained in the message header of this e-mail may be privileged and/or confidential. The sender does not waive any related rights or obligations. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than an intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this e-mail in error, please immediately advise DCC by return e-mail or otherwise then destroy it. Thank you.

[chrisplyler]

When you reply, in the text editor area, along the upper edge, are some formatting icons/tools. One of them is Insert/edit Image. Use it to add an image file into your post.

Making the tilt work is pretty easy. It's a face-based generic model. Once you start you can change its category to whatever you want. Make a reference line on the appropriate plane, align and lock one of its ends twice, and make the other end an angle parameter. So the line tilts. So how do you get an extrusion to tilt also? Or in fact any nested family you might want to plug in at this point? You build/place it on the reference plane of that reference line. So when the line tilts, anything built upon it must also tilt.

Of course I didn't bother with actual dimensions of the speaker cabinet, or materials. I was just experimenting with the funtionality. As you'll see a hint of in the screencast, before I started over to show you, I had made two extrusions with visibility parameters tied to them, so that I could make a 'Type A' with one extrusion shown, or a 'Type B' with a different extrusion shown. This methodology would allow you to place a few different speaker types with one family. I put in the final two reference lines and made them strong references just to make sure I had good selectable edges and center points on the front upper and lower edges of the speaker. I had not done that in the previous screencast.

Link: http://autode.sk/1JKa8nM

[chrisplyler]

Okay, I remade the speaker family with dimension parameters, and three speaker Types of differing dimensions. The only problem (not shown in the screencast video) is that if I change the dimensions of a type or simply change types of one of the already-placed speakers, the edge alignment is broken and I have to re-align it. Have not figured out how to make them always track to front/center of the one above no matter what.

Link: http://autode.sk/1BZgDwy