Rotate error: "Can't rotate element into this position."

[Anonymous]

I have a simple family comprised of an extruded angle shape.

While I can rotate this freely in the family editor, when I try to rotate it in the project I get a "Can't rotate element into this position." error in Revit 2011.

I have many other similar families that don't have this restriction and this was built from one of those.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Jon

[kathryn.langan]

When Revit places geometry in a view, it needs a work plane for the object. You can create an object that is hosted to a reference plane and then rotate that reference plane to rotate the object, but it is not possible to just use the Rotate tool in an elevation. I would suggest taking a look at the following blog post on the Revit Clinic from one of our other technicians, Ryan Duell : Rotational Parameters and Face Based Nested Families.

If you still have problems after checking the above, could you attach the family so we can take a closer look?

[Anonymous]

I still can not rotate, please help! the family is: "single angle connection-bolt_weld l4x3x5/16" out of the box from Revit structural 2012

[Alfredo_Medina · Accepted solution]

From the family editor: > Modify > Family Category and Parameters > check "Work plane based", uncheck "Always vertical".> Load into project. > Overwrite > Select the family > Pick New > face. It will allow rotation, too, from one of the axes. You can deal with rotation and/or new selecting a new face or workplane, to achieve the desired position.

[Anonymous]

after several attempts, I was finally able to get the connection horizontal. Thanks!

[Alfredo_Medina]

Then you should mark the solution.

[Anonymous]

I have a similar issue, however the fix doesn't appear to work in this case.

I am attempting to create a family of wedge shaped speakers that are hung in free air and rotated relative to each other in elevation and then the entire assembly is rotated in plan.  Imagine the speakers you see at a rock concert where there are 10 or so speakers (elements) hung with their front edges aligned and rotated a couple of degrees each element relative to the next creating a J shape.

I am finding that if I do things in the right order I can create a box shaped speaker family with a tilt parameter.  On a practical level using this method is quite onerous as these individual tilts are quite precise and can yield some very large numbers.  Using the rotate command would be much more viable on a practical level.

A second instance is a speaker cluster arrangement each speaker is married to the next in plan and then the group needs to tilt in section.  There appears to be no way to achieve this.

Revit novice I am, so I assume I am missing something very obvious. 

[Anonymous]

This is precisely the issue I'm running into now as well. 

It is incredible to me that such obvious, intuitive actions should require literally hours and hours to accomplish.

Can somebody at Autodesk share a solution to this high-level, esoteric quandry?

[Alfredo_Medina]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

...

It is incredible to me that such obvious, intuitive actions should require literally hours and hours to accomplish.

Can somebody at Autodesk share a solution to this high-level, esoteric quandry?

---

It does not take "hours and hours" to do this task, and it is not "high-level, esoteric" stuff.

Please refer to this other thread for a solution:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Autodesk-Revit-Architecture/Rotation-in-Any-Axis/m-p/3344679/highlight/true#M57575

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the creativity of this work around and I see how it can be very useful for families where there is a fixed point and an nested element allows rotation in one plane and a further nested element allows rotation in another plane (creating full pan and tilt relative to a fixed point - the mounting point. 

It is less convenient for an object that has no fixed point.  Unfortunately it creates a situation for us where proper alignment of an array of individually rotated attached objects is a little more of a challenge than we would like.  Our application is for a line array of speakers - those J shaped stacks of speakers that have become ubiquitous at rock concerts.  Each speaker in the stack is rotated (up or down) at a very specific angle relative to the one above.  Then the entire stack (I have used up to 14) are rotated in plan.  Its behavior is a bit like a bicycle chain in terms of the fixed relationship between elements and the interrrelated rotation in one axis of each element.  Where the analogy falls apart if each ellemt in the case of the speakers can be at a unique angle.

This is so much easier to do in autocad I have found it more expedient to model the entire stack in autocad and then drop it as a block into revit.

I hope the developers of revit can give us the option of rotating an element from a family (using the rotate command) in sections as well as plans instead of requiring the use of nested familes.

[Alfredo_Medina]

Yes, I understand you. Well, since Revit works with parameters, workplanes, constraints, etc., some tasks require a little more steps than in other programs where objects are not constrained by planes and parameters. But all that you have said is possible. If I can be of any further assistance please let me know.

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone for your help and fast responses!

Ofangonline is exactly right.  I actually invested 2.5 hours without success, even with the guidance of our BIM manager, to accomplish something that should take about 1.2 seconds. 

This is actually a bigger issue of Revit inhibiting intuitive interactions with content.  Rotating a family shouldn't require a backend logical infrastructure that requires multiple parameters, conditional filters, potentially multiple views, and a user interface that doesn't latch on to the simplicity of the task at hand.

The thread I was referred to by Alfred_Medina was helpful.  But the question wasn't even answered there.  It required a supplementary, third-party blog post that perfectly expresses the absurd level of complexity required to accomplish a fundamental task.  Does an application at the level of Revit actually require a blog post by a third party of the user community to reveal how to execute a process that--for any 3D application--should be so utterly straight-forward?

[Alfredo_Medina]

Well, rotating an object in a project takes 2 seconds, but making a model family that rotates properly takes longer. Why? Because Revit has rules, and it has to maintain relationships between work-planes, dimensions, and parameters, and still keep the ability for the families to respond to changes in those parameters.

You said you could not make this in 2.5 hours, even with the help of your BIM manager; well, simply because there is no easy button to rotate model families, and it requires to know the process. I am sure that if you and your BIM manager study the blog article, you can set up an utility family as a template to rotate any object, and then, you will be able to rotate any other object in 2.5 seconds.

The blog article is showing the three possible rotations of an element, which are: rotation in azimuth, rotation in elevation, and rotation around the own axis, all at the same time. So if it looks too complex for you it is because it is showing all the three options together, by the use of nested families. If you need just 1 or 2 rotations, then use the information in the article up to that point. However, the exercise about the speakers, mentioned in this thread, requires you to know not only about rotations, but also about controlling radial arrays with parameters. In summary, the family editor takes time to learn; nothing do about that, but once you learn it, you can do all this, and more.

Why did the blog article come from a third party? Well, because it was considered useful, and somebody thought that it would be a good adition to the Wikihelp. But once it is part of Wikihelp, the procedence of the article should not matter. If it is out there, it belongs to you, to me, to your BIM manager, and to all the Revit users.

[Anonymous]

the easiest way i found is

group your family---Rotate it--- then ungroup it

it works

[Alfredo_Medina]

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@Anonymous wrote:

the easiest way i found is

group your family---Rotate it--- then ungroup it

it works

---

Yes, but the discussion is not about making just one random rotation, but how to control that rotation with parameters, and how to rotate objects not only in the plan workplane, but also, a second rotation from the elevation workplane, and maybe a third rotation from the object's own axis. It's not as simple as making groups. Basically, there are 2 methods, for generic families: reference lines or arcs, and for adaptive families, points.

[clparvez]

Actually, no it wasn't.  The original discussion was about a guy having problems rotating a family instance.  Sometimes it is inconvienient to have things workplane based, particularly with MEP where there is a ton of content between ceiling and slab.  Sometimes the families need to twist or turn in a way that may seem unnatural to Revit, but is quite natural to an installer or designer.  The real world happens, and if we as a group do not demand that Revit reflect the real world (intuitively and without the necessity or reading blogs/post/articles/books then practicing many times until we finally get it) then we are failing in our promotion of the tool itself.  Revit is a good tool, but it could be better.

[Anonymous]

You are absolutely correct sir!

Robert Weckesser assoc. AIA
Architectural Designer
______________________________

RMF Engineering
Reliability. Efficiency. Integrity.

p: 410.576.0505
www.rmf.com
"Find us on Facebook"

[ckasefang]

Very well said.

I have fallen back to using Autocad to create the speaker stacks I described much earlier and then using that block as an imported element in Revit.  Kind of crazy having to use what really is a tool rooted in 2d work to create a 3d object for use in a 3d tool because the 3d tool doesn't have that level of utility.

[clparvez]

I had to build a new family this morning for users to address this problem.  It meant that an already bloated file got a little more bloated and their lives got a little more complicated because they have to change views to put in a piece of equipment.  It is painful when time constraints are already strangling designers and they are faced with yet more picks and clicks to do their jobs.

[Alfredo_Medina]

Well, my comment to the previous comments in this thread is this: when you are faced with a problem that you cannot solve in Revit, you have 3 choices:

1) Complain about Revit.

2) Quit and do it in another application.

3) Figure out a solution in Revit.

Yes, maybe Revit should have a tool to make rotations in different planes in an easier way. But, since that tool is not there yet, I chose option # 3, and I have shared the solutions for both the generic and the adaptive environments. Some of you guys complain about having to "read blogs" to learn how to make rotations. That's option # 1: complain.