Instance of [window] not cutting anything

[kgatzke]

I know this has been asked before because I can't be the only person having this problem (using Revit) but I can't be bothered with spending a day trying to find the version that matches my issue so here goes.

I have a window being demo'd and replaced with another window exactly the same size.  I know, weird, right?  Who does that?  Anyways, every time I try placing the new window I get the classic "Instance of whatever not cutting anything because we outsourced QA and you need to change your workflow" message.  

The kicker (and what fails every solution I've seen so far) is it's ANOTHER window that's dying in the process, not the new one I'm placing or the existing to be demo'd window from a previous phase, so...

what gives?  Here's some screenshots.

I'm trying to move Mr. Blue. to 1'-0" from Mr. Gray.

Oh no,  someone shot Mr. Gray.

Yep, he's dead.

I tried making a group out of the offending items but the same error kept coming up and blocking me.  I attached the family instead incase there's a noticeable error in there.  The same family is being used for both demo and new.  

[ The subject line of this post has been edited for clarity by @handjonathan Original: I'm infillable young man!]

[SteveKStafford]

You could make the existing window slightly larger or smaller so the replacement doesn't completely eliminate the infill portion. Another way to deal with it is to just put the new window in the model and provide a note that says existing window gets replaced. In demolition elevations just show the window (new design in the existing spot) and add the note to clarify what is supposed to happen.

[kgatzke]

Changing the window dimensions screws up the elevations we use to tell the contractors the window sizes. But that's not working anyways because I've already tried it with windows that were 2" narrower! Every time I get a window to work, after like 20 moves, the next one kills another window somewhere else in the same wall! I've got one wall split into five walls for five separate windows. I can't keep doing that!

What do I have to do?  I've gotten myself into a place where even the workarounds aren't working.  What, do I need to in-place model the entire f'ing building? 

I've looked into it and found threads and discussions here and elsewhere dealing with this issue going back to 2010, full of kiss ass code monkeys spouting about how wonderful Revit is and how its creators are geniuses and how we users and our bad workflows are the problem.  What kind of genius thought it made sense to make the infilling element irrevocable and unreplaceable in the first place?  And what kind of geniuses after 13 years can't fix these mistakes?!

[SteveKStafford]

Sorry this hasn't been easier for you. You wrote that you have split walls...does that mean you also tried demolishing the hosting wall and putting a new wall with the new window(s) in that host? I've done that to deal with replacement doors, split on either side of the door a little and demo the wall and door together. Put a new wall in and place the new door. That "worked" since we can't really just replace a door without messing up the surrounding wall some, requiring patching at the very least.

What version of Revit is this project in? Can you share a sample wall (stripped down model)?

[kgatzke]

Not exactly, though I did one like that somewhere else.  I divided a wall in 5 different walls and followed the "normal" process of 1. place existing window, 2. demo existing window, 3. place new window in infill wall, 4. align to existing once in each wall.  2 or more windows has started doing this failure of other windows thing.

Is there some kind of limit to the number of objects a wall can host?

Because the creating openings to hold hosting walls to host windows just to demo both to avoid conflicts between mandatory infill walls and new walls adds a whole bunch of extra steps to the whole process AND kind of defeats purpose (and promise) of BIM.  

I might as well use CAD.

[SteveKStafford]

Well FWIW I did some random testing tonight using R2024 placing various stock windows of the same sizes in walls. It all worked without complaint. If you post one of your walls/windows in a stripped down project it might help us see if there is something unique about your configuration that I might have missed in my test. Off topic...any relation to a Mike Gatzke?

[kgatzke]

@SteveKStafford any relation to a Mike Gatzke?

Not that I'm aware of.  

I opened a case with Autodesk's support (3 days ago) and still haven't gotten a response.  When I did I sent them this with the challenge to demo the window on the right.  When I do it the upper left window must be deleted.  I didn't create any of these families nor do I know who did, but nothing seemed out of the ordinary.

[syman2000]

I've tested it. It seems you have an existing window demo and have a new window placed on top of the existing window. I run into the issue constantly and I wish Revit would simply not fill in the wall where the original window is demo. My recommendation is to have an opening where you want the new window to be placed. Then add new wall and window infill to the opening.

[SteveKStafford]

Seems to have something to do with the window families. When I swap them out for stock Revit windows I can demo the one in your challenge without a warning. I can also place new windows in exactly the same location without complaints from Revit.

I'll have to experiment with the windows a bit to see if I can tell why.

[SteveKStafford]

Doesn't like this window family WN_INT_STFR_1 W_GN. I get normal behavior with the other window when all three are based on it. As soon as I use this one and try to do normal things with it Revit complains.

[ToanDN]

- Set the existing window to be demolished under New phase

- Set the view to Existing phase > copyclip the existing window > change the view to New phase > paste aligned in place > change window type to the new one

[SteveKStafford]

I'm pretty sure it's down to the window family WN_INT_STFR_1 W_GN. FWIW, I tried it in 2024 too. Just opening the problem file in 2024 generates a message that it has to delete a window. I can place the other window family in the model and get expected results. Doing exactly the same steps using the other window and it fails. Using stock windows instead of those in the sample file and it all works normally (in 2023 or 2024).

[ToanDN]

Edit the window family, remove the void and use a Cut Opening.  No issues after that.

[SteveKStafford]

Thanks for looking at that, I was going to dig into the family tonight. 🙂 I suspected it might be something like that. Is the void not constrained well, extending out too far perhaps?

[ToanDN]

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@SteveKStafford wrote:

Thanks for looking at that, I was going to dig into the family tonight. 🙂 I suspected it might be something like that. Is the void not constrained well, extending out too far perhaps?

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I wasn't diving that deep.  I suspect it is just one drawback of using a Void in lieu of a Cut opening.

[SteveKStafford]

Hmm, maybe it's the phase induced switching of window host cutting in the same location that use void vs opening.

Hypothesis A: Within phasing we can replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF they both use an OPENING in the family to cut the host.

Hypothesis B: Within phasing we can replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF they both use a VOID in the family to cut the host.

If either of the above are false then...

Hypothesis C: Within phasing we CANNOT replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF one uses an OPENING and the other uses a VOID, in the family, to cut the host.

[SteveKStafford]

After a little testing...

Hypothesis A: Within phasing we can replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF they both use an OPENING in the family to cut the host.

A = TRUE

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Hypothesis B: Within phasing we can replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF they both use a VOID in the family to cut the host.

B = FALSE

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Hypothesis C: Within phasing we CANNOT replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF one uses an OPENING and the other uses a VOID, in the family, to cut the host.

C = neither

I find that I can replace a Void based window with an Opening based window but not the reverse. Also any alterations to the host wall in the project; such as length adjustment, or top/bottom offsets, attach/detach will place the void type window at risk of being deleted. Weird that it might not delete all of them, one or more.

Seems that the short answer is: eliminate window families that use a void to cut the hosting wall IF you intend to place identical sized windows in phased projects; to demonstrate existing window replacement without altering the existing openings. Windows created this way will not work for this task.