Family Insertion Point

[hliS658H]

I created a face-based family to replace an existing non face-based family in the project. The existing family origin is set at the lower left corner, while the newly created family had the origin at the center be default, so I changed it to the lower left corner. It seems everything is the same except "face-base". However, when I loaded the new family into the project and replaced the existing one, the object's position shifted with the new family's center jumped to the old family's lower left corner spot, it looks like the system was still using the center  as the insertion point. How come? I also tried to edit the new family's origin by moving its lower left corner to the center spot - the default origin,  I suspected the coordinates might also affect the insertion origin?  However, the reference planes couldn't be moved which means I have to redo those.  I wonder if I missed something while editing the origin? 

[hliS658H]

I created a face-based family to replace an existing non face-based family in the project. The existing family origin is set at the lower left corner, while the newly created family had the origin at the center be default, so I changed it to the lower left corner. It seems everything is the same except "face-base". However, when I loaded the new family into the project and replaced the existing one, the object's position shifted with the new family's center jumped to the old family's lower left corner spot, it looks like the system was still using the center  as the insertion point. How come? I also tried to edit the new family's origin by moving its lower left corner to the center spot - the default origin,  I suspected the coordinates might also affect the insertion origin?  However, the reference planes couldn't be moved which means I have to redo those.  I wonder if I missed something while editing the origin? 

[barthbradley]

Be a heck of a lot easier (and faster) if you could post some illustrations.  Even the RVT (or the 2 RFAs) would be a big help.  Can you share?  

[barthbradley]

Be a heck of a lot easier (and faster) if you could post some illustrations.  Even the RVT (or the 2 RFAs) would be a big help.  Can you share?  

[Lance.Coffey]

Thank you for the question @hliS658H,

I found a fair number of threads on this topic:

• Setting Origin/Insertion point
• family insertion point
• Revit Family Change Origin
• Changing a Family's insertion point / origin
• What controls window family origin when placed in elevation views?

If a solution is not found in the links above, could you reply with the following?

• A new project containing a copy of the old family.
• A copy of the new family (so that it can be loaded into the project and see the change in position).

[Lance.Coffey]

Thank you for the question @hliS658H,

I found a fair number of threads on this topic:

• Setting Origin/Insertion point
• family insertion point
• Revit Family Change Origin
• Changing a Family's insertion point / origin
• What controls window family origin when placed in elevation views?

If a solution is not found in the links above, could you reply with the following?

• A new project containing a copy of the old family.
• A copy of the new family (so that it can be loaded into the project and see the change in position).

[barthbradley]

FWIW: I found this book as well...

https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Mastering+Autodesk+Revit+2020-p-9781119570127

😉

[barthbradley]

FWIW: I found this book as well...

https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Mastering+Autodesk+Revit+2020-p-9781119570127

😉

[hmunsell]

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@hliS658H wrote:

...so I changed it to the lower left corner. 

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how did you change it? for families the origin is defined by setting a reference plant to Defines Origin. if you have 2 crossing reference planes, bot set to Define Origin, where they intersect is the insertion point. if you don't like the location of existing reference planes, draw new ones and set them to Defines Origin. 

screen captures and/or uplad the family will help us disgnose the issue. 

[hmunsell]

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@hliS658H wrote:

...so I changed it to the lower left corner. 

---

how did you change it? for families the origin is defined by setting a reference plant to Defines Origin. if you have 2 crossing reference planes, bot set to Define Origin, where they intersect is the insertion point. if you don't like the location of existing reference planes, draw new ones and set them to Defines Origin. 

screen captures and/or uplad the family will help us disgnose the issue. 

[hliS658H]

Yes, I did change the origin by setting another two reference planes. The insertion point was changed to the new position - lower left corner successfully. What frustrated me was when I changed the family from the old one to the new one, it shifted. You would think if the new and old families shared the same position of origin, the new one would align with the old.

[hliS658H]

Yes, I did change the origin by setting another two reference planes. The insertion point was changed to the new position - lower left corner successfully. What frustrated me was when I changed the family from the old one to the new one, it shifted. You would think if the new and old families shared the same position of origin, the new one would align with the old.

[barthbradley]

Can you post the two rfa's?  

[barthbradley]

Can you post the two rfa's?  

[hliS658H]

Here are the RFAs.

[hliS658H]

Here are the RFAs.

[barthbradley]

I can confirm that both families can be inserted Origin to Origin and that no shifting or drifting is happening here - no matter how hard I try.  Obviously, they are slightly different from each geometry-wise, so their geometries don't match up precisely when Origin Ref. Planes are precisely aligned.  

[barthbradley]

I can confirm that both families can be inserted Origin to Origin and that no shifting or drifting is happening here - no matter how hard I try.  Obviously, they are slightly different from each geometry-wise, so their geometries don't match up precisely when Origin Ref. Planes are precisely aligned.  

[ToanDN]

You wouldn't need to recreate the family. Simply edit the old one, untick
Always Vertical, tick Workplane, then you can place it on a face or on a
named workplane in your project.

[ToanDN]

You wouldn't need to recreate the family. Simply edit the old one, untick
Always Vertical, tick Workplane, then you can place it on a face or on a
named workplane in your project.

[barthbradley]

oops...forgot to mention that I did what @ToanDN said (see 3rd Screenshot).  

[barthbradley]

oops...forgot to mention that I did what @ToanDN said (see 3rd Screenshot).  

[hliS658H]

Yes, you are right.  I thought the original family is non host-based, so I started from scratch by using face-based template. I wonder what kind of family the original one is? What template was it used?

[hliS658H]

Yes, you are right.  I thought the original family is non host-based, so I started from scratch by using face-based template. I wonder what kind of family the original one is? What template was it used?

[barthbradley]

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@hliS658H wrote:

 What template was it used?

---

Hosted.  

[barthbradley]

---

@hliS658H wrote:

 What template was it used?

---

Hosted.  

[ToanDN]

It is either a non-host generic family or a face based family with the host removed. It really doesn't matter much.

[ToanDN]

It is either a non-host generic family or a face based family with the host removed. It really doesn't matter much.

[hliS658H]

No issue to insert the family at origin. The insertion point is at the lower left corner with both families.  But have you tried this ? - insert old family first, then change the old one to the new family, the new family won't stay at the original position but offset with the center jumped to the lower left corner as the image I posted. I noticed when I clicked the new family, I saw some symbols pointed at the center, what do those stand for? That might be the reason? Is there a center point that can't be changed?

[hliS658H]

No issue to insert the family at origin. The insertion point is at the lower left corner with both families.  But have you tried this ? - insert old family first, then change the old one to the new family, the new family won't stay at the original position but offset with the center jumped to the lower left corner as the image I posted. I noticed when I clicked the new family, I saw some symbols pointed at the center, what do those stand for? That might be the reason? Is there a center point that can't be changed?

[hliS658H]

I would like to be able to create a family with that type of flexibility, check or uncheck workface, vertical etc.

[hliS658H]

I would like to be able to create a family with that type of flexibility, check or uncheck workface, vertical etc.

[barthbradley]

Are you asking about the Flip Work  Plane icon?

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-lt/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2014/ENU/Revi...

[barthbradley]

Are you asking about the Flip Work  Plane icon?

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-lt/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2014/ENU/Revi...

[ToanDN]

All non-host family templates have those options. For instance, start from Generic Model family template.

[ToanDN]

All non-host family templates have those options. For instance, start from Generic Model family template.

[hliS658H]

I did the test in a new file, inserted a few old families, then changed them to new families, they shifted and lost association to the host; copy didn't work either because copied object lost association to the host and when you picked a new host, the position changed too . It looks like no easy way to do the change, have to re-insert and layout everything. Just don't understand what is in the control that causes position shift.

[hliS658H]

I did the test in a new file, inserted a few old families, then changed them to new families, they shifted and lost association to the host; copy didn't work either because copied object lost association to the host and when you picked a new host, the position changed too . It looks like no easy way to do the change, have to re-insert and layout everything. Just don't understand what is in the control that causes position shift.

[hliS658H]

Another question, I inserted the families multiple times, I noticed some of the instances have the symbol " make elements editable", some don't? 

[hliS658H]

Another question, I inserted the families multiple times, I noticed some of the instances have the symbol " make elements editable", some don't?