Cut and Fill not working if topo is split or has regions

[gsucci]

Hello,

old topic, but no solution yet?

Please see:

http://youtu.be/U0puJGa8r-k?hd=1

...and I am sorry for the drunk ranting... 😮

Nevertheless, it would be really nice to know if there are any plans to fix this issue (or if there are any workarounds?).

In the video I do not show it, but this problems happens with Subregions as well (Revit 2018.2).

Thank you

regards

Giovanni

[barthbradley]

Yes, it is backass backwards with Split Surfaces. The Split Surface GRADED REGION COPY need to be reside in the Split Surface's existing phase in order to calculate cut and fill.  

[ToanDN]

The easiest way is move parts of the topography outside of the region to a new file before you grading/padding.  Then link it back in.

[barthbradley]

The best way to use a SPLIT SURFACE (not a Sub"Region"), in the way the OP is trying to use it; is to remove the "SPLIT" from the "SURFACE". In other words: get rid of the surrounding Toposurface that is makes it a Split Surface. Get rid of the interdependence altogether -- or simply don't Split to begin with. 

[ToanDN]

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@Anonymous wrote:

The best way to use a SPLIT SURFACE (not a Sub"Region"), in the way the OP is trying to use it; is to remove the "SPLIT" from the "SURFACE". In other words: get rid of the surrounding Toposurface that is makes it a Split Surface. Get rid of the interdependence altogether -- or simply don't Split to begin with. 

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How?

[barthbradley]

DELETE (DE)

[ToanDN]

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@Anonymous wrote:

DELETE (DE)

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That was half of what I said in my post.

Edited by
Discussion_Admin

[barthbradley]

Why is Kevin getting face time here? 

Think about it. What is a Spilt Surface? It's part of a whole surface, so consequently there's a relationship. Delete its surrounding toposurface, and the Split Surface behaves just like a "regular" toposurface. 

...not close to half. 

[ToanDN]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Why is Kevin getting face time here? 

Think about it. What is a Spilt Surface? It's part of a whole surface, so consequently there's a relationship. Delete its surrounding toposurface, and the Split Surface behaves just like a "regular" toposurface. 

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How would he show the deleted parts?

[gsucci]

1. Sorry, but saying: "just delete sub-regions / split regions" beats the purpose of the question.
   If I ask: "how do I do this", the answer cannot be: "oh, just do NOT do it".
   
   Yes?
   
   
2. The suggestion to link-in the rest of the topography is viable, but it is a cumbersome workaround.
3. Any ETA when this bug will be fixed? Is there anyone from Autodesk keeping track of these issues?

Thank you

regards

Giovanni

Edited by
Discussion_Admin

[barthbradley]

@gsucci: Sorry for the sidebar comments I made in your thread. 

I do not consider this a BUG -- but I did years ago, just like you. 

A Split Surface cannot be separated from the Toposurface from which it was created. It is was separated, it would not be a "Split Surface"; would it?  

What I suggest is that you either: 1) Change the Split Surfaces into a regular Toposurfaces by deleting the topography surrounding it, or: 2) Remove the Split Surfaces using Merge Surfaces (or don't split the surface to begin with), or: 3) deal with the fact that the Split Surfaces need to remain in their creation phase in order to pull cut/fill data.  

My remark about "Subregion", was a suggestion that maybe, just maybe, you could achieve what you wanted through using Subregions, instead of Split Surfaces.  Just a suggestion. 

[gsucci]

Barth,

thank you for trying to help, but seriously, if you do not have the Revit experience or knowledge, or even the ability to understand the issue described in the thread, I really do not see why you are so zealous to reply.

1. There is NO SUCH A THING as a "Split Surface". There are "Topography:Surfaces" and there are "Topography:Subregions".
2. There is a "Split Surface" TOOL, which splits one Topography:Surface into two. Once the Topography:Surface has been split, it becomes two Topography:Surfaces, which are by all intents and purposes separate, independent elements. Revit has no "memory" or understanding that the two were once one Topography:Surface.
3. From what you are writing ("A Split Surface cannot be separated from the Toposurface from which it was created") it appears that you are confusing two separate Topography:Surfaces which were split with the Split Surface tool with Topography:Subregions. This is a big confusion, please look it up and understand the difference.
4. Also, this confusion is apparent looking at your statements about phases. It is true that the phase of Topography:Subregions, are always consistent with the phase of the Topography:Surface they belong to, which is AUTOMATICALLY DONE by Revit. You cannot change the phase of a subregion. When you change the phase of a Topography:Surface, all its subregions acquire the same phasing, automatically.

Now let's look at your suggestions:

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barthbradley wrote:

What I suggest is that you either: 1) Change the Split Surfaces into a regular Toposurfaces by deleting the topography surrounding it,

> this "change" you are suggesting does not exist in Revit: again, the two Topography:Surfaces resulting from splitting one Topgraphy:Surface ARE ALREADY "regular Toposurfaces". This is why one would expect the cut and fill parameters to populate normally while instead they do not.

or: 2) Remove the Split Surfaces using Merge Surfaces (or don't split the surface to begin with), or:

> Yes, I could avoid splitting the site off of the overall topography, however, I resorted to split my topography in two because of the sub-regions, which, again, trigger the bug that prevents cut and fill values to populate.  I was hoping that with a separate topography, which had no subregions within it, the cut and fill values would show as expected, but once again, they did not.

3) deal with the fact that the Split Surfaces need to remain in their creation phase in order to pull cut/fill data.

> Again, human error in the phasing has nothing to do with this bug. Otherwise, please write a step by step tutorial on how to obtain cut and fill values by manipulating the phasing of the Topography:Surfaces.

My remark about "Subregion", was a suggestion that maybe, just maybe, you could achieve what you wanted through using Subregions, instead of Split Surfaces.  Just a suggestion.

> yes, this would have been a good idea, except that the Subregions were at the very beginning of this issue: my original topography was ONE Topography:Surface, with several Topography:Subregions on it. I had used the Graded Region tool to demo and copy the topography, but once I built the pads on to the new topography, no cut and fill values would populate. Starting from the same topography but without any subregions would calculate properly cut and fills.

It is beyond me how you think that this erratic and unpredictable behavior is not a bug, for both cases really: 1. using Topography:Subregions or 2. Topography:Surfaces which were once one Topography:Surface.

Revit failing to show cut and fill values in either of the two cases makes no sense.

Unless you found the Autodesk documentation that describes this behavior as a feature of the program.

Then, I would love to read it.

Thank you again,

Regards

Giovanni

PS:  I found some logic to this bug: it appears it depends on how the original Topography:Surface is being split. If one uses one or two segment sketch, the cut and fill values are displayed correctly. If one uses a closed sketch to create the split, then the cut and fill values will not show. I will make another video to show this crazy bug...

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[barthbradley]

Wow! I don’t even know how to follow up that diatribe of yours. I’m sorry I can’t dumb it down any further to your level of misunderstanding. Clearly, you are lost – as well as disrespectful. 

[gsucci]

It appears the geometry of the sketch for the Split tool of the topography triggers the bug...

http://youtu.be/c4UlS_CUlMs?hd=1

thanks

Gio

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @gsucci

Thank you for the report for Revit 2018.2 - cut and fill not working. Yes, multiple cases and similar issues have been identified with older versions as well. 

There is a dedicated team to track these issues, I will follow up to see if we have any updates.

For cut \ fill to work reliably the surface ideally needs to fully lay within the boundary of the other surface, or use the entire boundary (creating the graded region and not splitting it). Help has some additional information:

http://help.autodesk.com/view/RVT/2016/ENU/?guid=GUID-F9994BBC-027A-41B8-8852-FB33A34C3AC7

When the entire toposurface is used for the graded region, it should properly calculate the cut \ fill. This would be the recommended workflow for the most accurate cut / fill values. 

Regards,

[barthbradley]

@Viveka_CD: I don’t know how you can call this an “issue”. I reported this to Autodesk over 5 years ago. By now, I would think Autodesk would just call it “typical” or “expected” behavior.

The behavior is this: Using the exact workflow you posted in your link: a Graded Region copy of a Split Surface, that has been created as a fully enclosed boundary inside the boundary of another Toposurface, does not report cut and fill data. In order for this kind of Split Surface to report cut and fill data, the creation phase of the Graded Region copy of the Split Surface, needs to be changed back to the creation phase of the Toposurface from which the closed-boundary Split Surface was created.  

As I characterized it earlier in this thread: it’s backass backwards. And, since Autodesk hasn’t “fixed” it; I’ve learned to work with this behavior. 

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @barthbradley

I see what you are saying. Thanks for sharing the screencast.

What I meant was -similar issues w.r.t to scheduling where the cut and fill values are not reflected to schedule, cut/fill slope values, precise volume calculation and cut-fill hatching as well.

In some instances, there are cases where the main toposurface has been edited to go around the inner toposurface.

Revit reports the values by making a comparison between a surface from one phase and, from a later phase, another surface whose boundary lies within the earlier surface. For example, Revit can compare a toposurface created in Phase 1 and a toposurface created in Phase 2 that lies within the boundary of the surface from Phase 1.

The earliest documentation on this is from Revit 2014. 

As of now, these have been classified as problem reports.

Regards,

[gsucci]

Viveka,

Thank you for your reply.

This bug is related to two main conditions:

1. When one splits the topography surface into two. Then the cut and fill values will not populate for the graded topography, under the new pads.

2. When one uses sub-regions in the original topography. Then, again, cut and fill will not populate.

The only viable workflow which results in (almost) the wanted topography model and Cut&Fill schedule (thus avoiding even using links, like previously suggested) appears to be something like the following:

1. Create the topography as one needs it: one surface with several subregions.
2. Split the new site away, so that it will become a separate topo surface. This smaller surface cannot have subregions, of course.
3. Make a copy of this smaller site surface somewhere at a given distance, on the side.
4. Grade that copy of the smaller surface. Cut and Fill should populate.
5. Bring this "healthy" copy back into the larger site model.

I have spent another couple of hours debugging this, but it does not work all the time. The previous steps worked once, then haven't.

The Cut and fill parameters are very unpredictable, sometime they show up even when there are no copies of the topo on a previous phase, and all this should really be fixed.

In my opinion, for example, there is no need for the Grading tool if one only uses Pads. A pad is a grading tool itself, and Revit has all the information it needs to calculate how much cut and fill is happening because of a pad.

The grading tool should be used only when moving the topography points, then it make sense that Revit would need the original topo surface on the previous phase, in order to calculate the differences in the surfaces.

Anyways, thank you again to let us know that there is someone working on these issues.

Thank you

Regards

Giovanni

[barthbradley]

FWIW @Viveka_CD, I cannot replicate either “Bug” that the OP is describing.

1. I can split a Toposurface into two parts using the Split Surface tool, and then use the Graded Region tool to create and place a copy of one of the two parts into a later phase. When I place Building Pads onto this Graded Region copy, the cut and fill values are reported accurately.
2. I can define several Subregions in a single Toposurface and then use the Graded Region tool to create and place a copy of this Toposurface, and its Subregions, into a later phase. When I place Building Pads onto this Graded Region copy, the cut and fill values are reported accurately.

What am I doing wrong?

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @gsucci and @barthbradley

Thank you, both for your input so far.

I'll have to reproduce both your set of steps before I take this to the dedicated team.

I'll post back when we have an update.

Meanwhile, can you both send me your journals and Revit versions? (Versions which you've tested this process) - it will help to analyze this behavior.

Thanks,