Can I obtain offline activation in the future?

[Ognyan]

After losing communication with Matt,Felice advised me to post here.I already know about the ''life cycle''autodesk decided to invent.And i got a message from the corporate council trough Matt which was:

''Our policy has been consistent with the terms of our license agreements, although we have only loosely upheld the product activation policy in the past. What’s new is our intent to align our practices with our stated policies and Terms and consistently uphold them. Autodesk is not restricting users from perpetual rights of the use of our software, and at the same time, we are no longer agreeing to continue to offer product activation for legacy versions when the environment in which the software had been used has changed by events outside of our control.''

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In the message It says ''Autodesk is not restricting users from perpetual rights of the use of our software''

1) Yet, when the date of lets say march 2022 comes and for some reason I need to reinstall my Maya 2019 perpetual license due to workstation fail or new equipment I will not be able to.I will be RESTRICTED by Autodesk.This completely CONTRADICTS what you are saying to me and there is no solid background behind.What one thinks and wants (in this case Autodesk) doesn't mean its still legal to do and achieve by the current law.

In the message i received It says ''we are no longer agreeing to continue to offer product activation for legacy versions when the environment in which the software had been used has changed by events outside of our control'' 

2) I am the owner of the software and NOT my computer and I am in my right to renew my equipment and to reinstall the software that i use and own all the times i want..

This completely contradicts ''Autodesk is not restricting users from perpetual rights of the use of our software''

3) The life of a hardware can not be linked to a software by law.Completely illegal and there is no connection at all between the two.Autodesk has no rights over my hardware to dictate how long its software will live!

4) Perpetual licenses aren't services. Additional offerings might be, but the license at the core of it, is a product and Autodesk can be expected to ensure its accessibility (which includes activation) at a reasonable cost to Autodesk. This will include some fluctuations and "unexpected" events. Especially increased costs resulting from Autodesk failing to prepare for reasonably expectable events or discontinuing systems set in place earlier at any point in time, can't be a reason to discontinue activation support without offering an alternative.

And I am not getting any alternative here.All I require is a offline activation tool from Autodesk or a written permission that in the future, if I need to activate my software due to new system upgrade and Autodesk still doesn't provide new activation codes, than I need to be granted with a written document that permits me to activate the software the way a find best for me in order to take advantage of it and use it as intended.

5) Previous version rights are not an additional service in the first place, but an inherent right.No maintenance or subscription should be required for that.

As so, in my legal rights i continue to demand a offline activation tool if Autodesk decides to not honor our legal contract or a written permission to activate the software the way a find best for me in order to take advantage of it and use it as intended.

6) I have said it before and will say it again.As a citizen of the European Union

Here is the legal law document:

Directive 2009/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 on the legal protection of computer programs

Points 13,14 and 15

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32009L0024

''The exclusive rights of the author to prevent the unauthorised reproduction of his work should be subject to a limited exception in the case of a computer program to allow the reproduction technically necessary for the use of that program by the lawful acquirer. This means that the acts of loading and running necessary for the use of a copy of a program which has been lawfully acquired, and the act of correction of its errors, may not be prohibited by contract. In the absence of specific contractual provisions, including when a copy of the program has been sold, any other act necessary for the use of the copy of a program may be performed in accordance with its intended purpose by a lawful acquirer of that copy.''

Now I just typed a full wall of legal rights here that were provided to my by legal authorities.What it will take for Autodesk to acknowledge that there is something wrong with its current actions? Especially as i wasn't provided with a alternative to keep using my perpetual in the future?

[Ognyan]

As Xmass said, it loud be very good if autodesk shows us a European law document that contradicts the other shown European law document so that we have some proof that autodesk is right and we are wrong.

Since there was so much legal info provided by the users and so many questions were asked and not one answered, this means that people are free to use their legal rights of ownership and usage in their favor, by the provided European document and the rest of legal info from this thread since is just a one sided conversation in which autodesk doesn't want to participate. 

[Anonymous]

Wait wait wait, i need to wrap my head around this. I'm in the middle of a hardware upgrade (SSDs ,memory, video card. I have PSLs for Max 2014 and max 2015. I never bought into the "pay to play" business model and bailed with my PSLs before the went that way in 2016. So is what's be said here that the new policy is that when I uninstall max 2015, change hardware and clean Win 7 install, reinstall max that they are going to REFUSE to activate the product that I own ? They to me I bought a "Perpetual" license.  Let's see......

per·pet·u·al

/pərˈpeCH(o͞o)əl/

adjective

adjective: perpetual

1. 1.

   never ending or changing.

   "I bought a perpetual License"

   synonyms:

   everlasting, never-ending, eternal, permanent, unending, endless, without end, lasting, long-lasting, constant, abiding, enduring, perennial, timeless, ageless, deathless, undying, immortal;

   So did i miss something in the English language? Is the legal definition of Perpetual different than that ?

   I was pissed when they dumped the perpetual license model for their greedy pay to play enslavement of their users but I just moved on, but now this. If this is in fact the way it's going to be then it's way over the line.

   Joel

[Ognyan]

From my understanding you can do your hardware upgrade now without any problem and install.You will have to probably contact autodesk for them to eliminate your activation keys and provide you new ones for the install.If you don't have ''forced active maintenance'' than if past starting 2021 you decide to reinstall windows, change something in the hardware or just by a better workstation (your right to do so)and want to move the software there for better performance, autodesk >by their words, will not allow it and if some unexpected event happens to your current workstation past 2021, you will lose the right to use your current max 2014 and 2015.

If you haven't already, read the whole thread in order to understand that you are in your full right to use your software.

What i am interested in knowing is, what will happen if we download the autodesk exe software from our profile>move the installer on another pc>turn off the internet and install with our activation key in offline mode.Will it work?Or will it work, but the moment you turn on the internet it will detect that the key is already in use or that the workstation has changed?

Anyone?

[urbanite]

Hi everyone

I understand that decision regarding activation policy is made and nothing will change that. I guess there were many voices in AD that this will harm their reputation in big way, how bad it will look etc. Those voices were listened and the decision on indie program were introduce to. After all this topic, this discussion interest only small fishes, so relatively low price for the same software might be perfect timing  and just move on. I agree that there is not much point trying to convince AD to  change their mind and court is the only way to try to fight for our users, rights. It is really shame that it comes to this and they introduce such a luck of trust between software providers and us, users. In small business there a lot about trust. Autodesk were small at some point too.

[SilverVane]

Yes the decision to change activation policy is made. 

Autodesk has a clear history of changing licensing policy with the benefit of their shareholders in mind, and then ignoring the protests of customers who realize the new policy will have a negative impact on their business.  Its clear that Autodesk's licensing model is designed for one purpose alone - to maximize Autodesk's profit. And this is reasonable - up to a point. Unfortunately for Autodesk, executing policy to maximise profit is a modus operandi that is not without impact, and not without risk. Treating customers as livestock is not a sustainable business model in the 21st Century. 

Over recent years Autodesk has attempted to educate customers. Sadly it appears it is time for us to educate Autodesk. 

I am confident that they will change their policy. 

ps: The indie program is a welcome and long over-due move that seems to finally recognize the broad community of their customer base. But I worry about the 'temporary offer' and apparent lack of conviction. It doesn't feel like the real Autodesk.  Sorry guys, but this is what happens when trust is eroded. 

[Ognyan]

I want to show some written proof here.Before i made the purchase of my maya perpetual, on the date of 01-15-2016 I made this topic.

And on my first question

''1-The perpetual license is what it say it is.Buy it once no extra payments later right?''

I got a private message reply from Fellice which is this one.

https://postimg.cc/F7cXMqwb

Two days after that response, I bought my perpetual based on the written fact that I will be allowed to use it forever(all the time i desire to).From every way I look at it, autodesk lied, and I made a purchase based on a lie.

If we look at Maxon,Newtek,Bentley, The foundry,and the other main competitors what they have in common is that they all have the same interpretation and understanding of the word ''perpetual'' and they honor it.Only autodesk doesn't.

I want to continue to get what I payed for as  autodesk is causing me a massive migraine just searching for my rights when its obvious that is right there.

[Anonymous]

even today..... from AD on website. In regard to a perpetual licenses purchased up to 2016 prior to implementaion of their current "pay to play" business model.....

Perpetual Licenses

"Previously purchased perpetual licenses remain valid and are not impacted by Autodesk's change to a subscription-based model. If you purchased a perpetual license to Autodesk software, you can continue to use your software in accordance with your software license agreement.

Here is some additional information about your perpetual licenses:

• Installation and Activation: You can install and activate your perpetual license software on new computers according to the terms of your software license agreement"

They sold all those "perpetual" licenses with the above understanding. Notice the phrase "on NEW COMPUTERS".

If you go to that page there is a link to "your software agreement". If you follow that link you get to the CURRENT software agreement NOT the software agreement that came with the software you bought 2016 and before.

They are obviously dead wrong here but are playing the game of their legal pockets are deeper than yours as a user. They obviously dont give a rats a__ about us. 

BTW Matts' excuse about the code generators are old yada yada.... Really ? I mean really?  a company the size of autodesk that writes some very sophisticated cojmplex software can't handle some little code generator. It's an insult they would even suggest that.  Why don't they just come out and tell the truth.

Joel

[Ognyan]

Apologies, I forgot to include a link to the topic

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/perpetual-license-changes-read/need-help-to-understand-something-abou...

[rkmcswain]

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@Anonymous wrote:

BTW Matts' excuse about the code generators are old yada yada.... Really ? I mean really?  a company the size of autodesk that writes some very sophisticated cojmplex software can't handle some little code generator. It's an insult they would even suggest that.  Why don't they just come out and tell the truth.

That was also my immediate reaction upon reading this. That's the lamest excuse ever. 

[kris]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

BTW Matts' excuse about the code generators are old yada yada.... Really ? I mean really?  a company the size of autodesk that writes some very sophisticated cojmplex software can't handle some little code generator. It's an insult they would even suggest that.  Why don't they just come out and tell the truth.

---

My response is that if Autodesk can't keep their code generators up to date, that such is too much of a burden for them, then what in the hell are they in the software business for?  Is this the same reason they can't update the max kernel?  Backburner?  AutoCAD?  Probably.  Just affirms "dinosaur looking to make itself extinct".

This is a case of the management coming up with ideas in their fishbowl, talking to lawyers and marketing people, who are all yes-men.  It's the typical capitalist way.  Maximize the profit now.  When it starts to turn down later, we'll craft a new suite of lies later on to justify the downturn, and milk more money from the cattle.

Time and again, what I just don't understand is this insistence to "crush" the permanent licenses.  Do you not know that heavy handed tactics will guarantee those customers won't come back?  Eventually, those licenses will no longer be worth using; eventually M$ will break them on modern hardware; the expertise on those old versions will wane.  Where do you think those customers will chose to go?  Back to the rabble of lying sleeze that stole their options?  No, very much no.

Ergo, the only thing Autodesk has to gain from this tactic is losses.  I just can't fathom why they are so fixated...

Kris.

[pendean]

No use playing the dictionary game: Autodesk changed the rules. Talk to legal counsel if you want to go there, they are better positioned to take even more money and tell you the same thing.

2010 and older software will stop being authorized on new PCs after August 31st 2019: your 2015-16 seems to have a 2021 deadline? read the documents posted by Autodesk for yourself https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad/learn-explore/caas/simplecontent/content/previous-ver...

[pendean]

>>>...It's the typical capitalist way...<<<
So you are a self-funded charity then? Or are you like us end users and even Autodesk, you work to earn and live from those earnings? This is market economy 101.

[kris]

---

@pendean wrote:
>>>...It's the typical capitalist way...<<<
So you are a self-funded charity then? Or are you like us end users and even Autodesk, you work to earn and live from those earnings? This is market economy 101.

---

I have zero issue with companies making money for work done, IP developed, services offered.  Obviously, any of us using the software to create something and get paid for it are doing the same thing after a fashion.  However, by 'capitalist', I mean the greed driven market jerks who will do whatever it takes to make the last buck they can, even if it's tantamount to rape of the consumer.  It's the reason that Autodesk is the way it is.  Why our environment is going to crap.  While for all the wealth in the world, people are regularly dying from trivial things.   Why our current approach to an economy will probably be the end of us all; because the people making the decisions can't see past quarterly results.

Working to living from one's earnings is completely different than trying to do the least amount possible, and screwing over your customers in the process.  We're not in a world of binary differences, and please don't make it seem like I have to somehow choose between 80s capitalism and hippie freedom.   

Autodesk doesn't have to be an a-hole to get the end goal they want.  They just think they can force it, that they'll benefit form doing so.  And so they do.

Kris.

[Ognyan]

Here is something that is related. The links down show, that the document shown in the first page,also allows for used software do be transferred and sold again in Europe.

Please read everything and comment as I wasn't able to grasp everything at once and don't want to fall in mistaken interpretations.

A small evolution:

https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/EU-court-legalises-second-hand-software

https://www.cadnauseam.com/2017/04/18/you-can-still-buy-autodesk-perpetual-licenses-in-europe/

https://bdkadvokati.com/eu-court-rules-software-transfer-is-a-sale/

Also here is a important read as we can see a user selling a perpetual 3ds max 2017.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/t/selling-3ds-max-maintenance-subscription/1823940

The link at the end of the page is not working by i suspect its this one:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/customer-service/download-install/activate/transfer-licenses/transfer...

So from the info of the first 3 links I suspect that Autodesk gave us in Europe the US Eula clauses?

Why do I say that? Because in the eula, I think there was a restriction that you can not sell your perpetual from my understanding, while it looks to be clearly legal to do so since 2012.The Vernon vs Autodesk case was a fail, but it was in the US and not in Europe.Makes you think how many of those clauses are not compliant with European law..

So what now?We sell,transfer our perpetual to our friend for 1euro or a donation and after that he will transfer it back to us while Autodesk is obligated to give a activation with each transfer?And do the transfer every time we make changes to the workstation environment.

So a legal loophole or a waste of time?

[TMat]

I'm very interested in where the law stands with this issue in Australia.  And with most others I feel disgusted with the way users are being treated in regards to the actual (re) definition of the term "perpetual license".

Before going any further, are there any Australian users here who are aware of AU law who can clarify on our rights in relation to Autodesk's questionable move in policy as discussed?

Thanks. 

[Ognyan]

I don't know about Australia(you will have to talk with a lawyer to get that info),but in another forum I was pointed to information that might be in favor to the US citizens.

Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2018-23241.pdf

Its a tough read but i think it speaks about those exceptions in the ''SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION'' part of the document.

On the other hand I tried to talk with a autodesk employee once more and demand someone from the legal team to join and be transparent/dissolve misunderstandings/educate us the customers(as its their job to do so) to which I got this:

''I also do not think that our Legal team is not set up to participate in our forums, so I don't expect it to happen. ''

So..

1-a legal European document was shown with no less than 3 clauses that Autodesk decided to ignore

2-alternative solutions were shown which Autodesk ignored

3-the corporate council and legal team were invited more than 10 times which Autodesk ignored(as no one came)

4-appart from Matt showing for a sec no other Autodesk employee came and we were ignored

5-customers rights and voice was completely ignored

6-Autodesk didn't provided a alternative solution to the situation(and forced maintenance was never a solution)

7-I showed a email in which a employee clearly states to me the word ''forever'' 

Since no one comes forward to talk/explain to us,I see no reason why a judge loud favor autodesks childlike like behavior.

[jcdeblok]

The issue issue is that autodesk doesn't invalidate the license, it's valid forever. Nobody is disputing that.

Them not activating the software using that license is another thing and I'm not sure there is a legal obligation to do so, morally and ethically yes, but not sure if there is a legal basis for it.

The other side of that coin is that under these circumstances it's perfectly legal to circumvent the DRM as long as you have a valid license. And I'm sure that when the time comes there will be community made opensource tool for doing so in case anyone is worried about malware loaded cracks etc.

But where they make a critical error is that they think their customers need to use their software and thus can get away with it.  (I guess they are starting to find they are bleeding judging by their surveys in the blender forum and release of indie versions of Max and Maya).  All I see a lot of people who were using Max/Maya that are now in, or switching to, Houdini, Blender, c4d etc and having a great time. I've never ever saw someone go to other way around.

And it's not even all about the software, it's the communities, interaction with the company/developers etc, having bugs fixed within days in a nightly build.. it's about the entire ecosystem. Anyways just cut yourself away from this crap show and move on. The best thing you can do i to promote other solutions  and guide as much customers as possible toward more respectful companies.

[Ognyan]

Technically I still think autodesk is using US based clauses on us in Europe because in the US when you buy from them you are buying and become owner of a ''license'' and not owner of software, while in Europe to my understanding,by law this is a ''sale/product'' so we are owners of a product that comes with a license.There is a big difference, because our product will not work because of them.

What itches me is why we still haven't heard from the big companies.There are probably more than 2 million perpetual out there and nothing?

Or do big companies got a different treatment and are excluded with some deal under the table?..

[nico]

Big companies operate at a different scale and perception and won't follow the same reasonings as being discribed here. And most are also not really following this I assume and first need to have a bad experience before they awake and move to a different solution to avoid it happening again.

There's a new video from Autodesk talking about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myalUqgW8Vo

You can see our new strategy is working because: Dividend

That just amazes me xD cause that's not the definition of good software but ye after seeing this all hope is lost 😛

[Ognyan]

What i am still interested in knowing is, if your workstation goes boom past 2021 are you still in the right to sell that perpetual?And if yes, than will the buyer of the perpetual get a activation code?

Does anyone have the answer to this?

Its just a funny situation.