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It's time to fix it.

15 REPLIES 15
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Message 1 of 16
Anonymous
4922 Views, 15 Replies

It's time to fix it.

Hello my friends,

This is an open letter for Autodesk.

My name is Wictor. I've been working in the CG industry for the past 30 years, and I am a Maya user since 2002. I work in a Company which uses Maya since the beginning, and throughout the years I became a Generalist working there and a very experienced Maya user. This is only to say that I REALLY know the program, and I know what I'm talking about.

For the past 4 years I've been in a relationship of love and hate with Maya. I'm sorry if I sound angry in this text, but sometimes frustration kicks in and there is nothing to do about it. That's why I realized it was time to write something about this kind of abusive relationship.

People are afraid to write these things I’m writing. They are afraid to be roasted by the market itself. I’m not afraid. I think Autodesk Maya devs NEED a feedback like this.

 

I really don't know what is going on but using Maya 2019 is the most frustrating experience I ever had with the program. I managed to write a 20-page document listing all the crippling problems it has, but I thought it would be too much for a single forum. Frustration just kicked when working on a character, blend shaping all the 30 FACS expressions, and then suddenly when saving the project Maya crashed and corrupted the file I've been working for almost one month. I didn't have incremental save enabled, so poor me. This was just one of the more than 100 times Maya crashed on me ONLY THIS WEEK. Not only with this scene, but EVERY SCENE I MANAGED TO WORK. Maya is not only crashing. It's crashing my little heart. And it's making me nuts. I thought it could be me... my way of working... but it's not. And this is how an abusive relationship is - you think that all the problems come from you. But they're all coming from Maya and Autodesk. Sorry to say. It's sad, but true.

 

Remember when Autodesk put Render Setup as standard back in Maya 2017 and it was broken beyond believe and was impossible to use? Well, let's say that was a disease that spread through Maya entirely for the 2019.2 version. Working with textures will crash Maya. UV Editor will crash Maya. Shape Editor will be messed up, displaying wrong and outdated information, and will crash Maya. Xgen will surely crash Maya. Paint skin weights will crash Maya every time. Nucleus simulation will crash Maya, even when cashed. Jumping the timelime from a frame to another will crash Maya. Placing a single bend deformer in any polygon mesh will crash Maya. Maya will crash on startup sometimes! ****… Oh there are the freezes too… so much I can’t compute.

Autodesk should rename “Autodesk Maya - ver. 2019.2” to “Autodesk Crash - ver. I Dare You”


I work in one of the biggest CG Companies in Latin America. We all here use Maya. For years our developers are struggling with Maya's problems, and finally the Direction begun to consider changing the main 3D program for another one that might not be Autodesk.

Being one of the biggest CG Companies in LATAM doesn't mean we're big. And as we don't have a considerable R&D team, we use core Maya for basically every work, in all its extension. Huge Companies like ILM or Disney use Maya for a base thing and they develop their own apps, add-ons and technology, so they might not percept how crippled Maya is. The end user knows.

 

What I see often here is the question “Are you using certified hardware?” No, I’m not. I never did, and never will. The Company I work in never did too. No one is in LATAM. No one can afford it. Why pay $20.000 in a videocard that won’t return its value as much an $800 will with VERY SIMILAR results? It’s easy to lean the support on expensive hardware since almost no one will have it, and so you can say “you’re not using it, so that’s your problem”. Time to shift development to less expensive hardware since everybody is using them. Just do it.

 

When Maya 2019 was delayed I was so hopeful, you know? I thought “finally they realized that fixing issues and making it stable is more important than release broken and rushed yearly versions”. I was wrong.

 

No wonder why programs like Blender are beginning to eat an important portion of the market share. Autodesk Maya is expensive and problematic. Blender is free and open source. Bender support is inexistent. Maya’s support is close to it and might not worth the money you pay for it. Blender is developed for everyone. Maya is developed for “certified hardware”. It is getting harder and harder to hate Blender. So it’s time to fix it.

 

Maya Dev Team, I know…. It might be hard to deal with the stupid and auto-indulgent executive part of Autodesk pushing you to the exhaustion to deliver a new Maya every 6 months. But There are a plenty of stumbles that are breaking the program to an unusable state. Don't be mad about me Sean Heasley, you know it's true.

 

I can say for all end users of Maya that we’re not going to be angry with you if you take 4 years to release a new version of it that works. Yes, do it by the scratch. Just get rid of all the patchwork you’ve putting on top of another since 2008. Let’s fix it.

 

Thank you

15 REPLIES 15
Message 2 of 16
Christoph_Schaedl
in reply to: Anonymous

Post reproduceable bugs. That would help more like a rant like this. There is nothing in your post that the devs dont know. And nothing that would help to find bugs.

 

If it does crash that often it might be some other issues that are the source of this behavior. Post some repro scenes and i will take a look. 

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https://linktr.ee/cg_oglu
Message 3 of 16
Anonymous
in reply to: Christoph_Schaedl

Remember the crash screen that maya provides you when it crashes? I use it in details every time. Do I really need to use that AND post the bugs here?

I cannot provide confidential work that suffers from the mentioned bugs here... sorry...

 

If every thing I said here the devs know, why all those problems persist for so long? As I mentioned, I don't think it's their fault anyway...

If I don't rant like this, you'll never know our frustrations. I paid for this software. I have the  rights to rant about an unsatisfied experience with the program, and you have the obligation to listen. It's a provider and consumer thing...

 

Thank you. 

Message 4 of 16
mspeer
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi!

There is nothing wrong with providing your overall experience with the software and to ask for general improvements in certain areas. But please also keep in mind that this a peer-to-peer user forum so you are mainly talking to other users and not Autodesk.

Also without specific examples it's simply not possible to find out what's causing the problems.

 

For example this is my experience with Maya 2019.2, which makes me think that your issues are related to your system.

 

"Working with textures will crash Maya."

- Not here

"UV Editor will crash Maya.

- Not here

"Shape Editor will be messed up, displaying wrong and outdated information, and will crash Maya."

- Not here

"Xgen will surely crash Maya."

- Not here

"Paint skin weights will crash Maya every time."

- Not here

"Nucleus simulation will crash Maya, even when cashed."

- Not here

"Jumping the timelime from a frame to another will crash Maya."

- Not here

"Placing a single bend deformer in any polygon mesh will crash Maya."

- Not here

"Maya will crash on startup sometimes!"

- Not here.

 

I don't say that Maya does never crash here, but not in general with common tasks as you described here.

So the assumption from @Christoph_Schaedl  that there is something specific at your system causing this issues seems not

to be improbable.

(But i also don't like these short release cycles. In my opinion you can't do proper beta testing and bug fixing while constantly changing features.)

Message 5 of 16
Christoph_Schaedl
in reply to: Anonymous

This crash screen you send to autodesk does not send enough data to get a repro scene out of it.

Without a repro scene and a lot of extra info most bugs arnt reproduceable.

You dont have to send the client scene. Just delete everything that is confidential or build a new dummy scene.

 

Those problems are there for so long cause Autodesk is giant company. And therefore slow. New developers come and go. 

 

The defs are working hard to make maya more stable. Every repro scene we find in the beta is getting solved.

 

 

Rant does help only if you provide helpfull data. In many cases Maya doesnt crash on a new system with totally fresh created scenes. Old prefs, corrupted prefs. Old custom scripts. Old rigs and premade assets are most of the time the issue.

 

 

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https://linktr.ee/cg_oglu
Message 6 of 16
dgorsman
in reply to: mspeer

@mspeer  - one of the reasons for the short release cycle is a limitation in the testing cycle.  As much work as they put into finding and fixing things before and in BETA, a lot can only be found when the product is being actively used in the wild.  One of the development concepts in use today is to get a product out as soon as possible without any full-stop bugs, that fulfills the goals.  The issues specifically brought up are addressed first.  In doing so effort is spent on areas that are used rather than polishing parts that are less important, so (in theory) fixes are generated faster and with less overall hours/budget than a longer, more traditional cycle.

----------------------------------
If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.
"I don't know" is the beginning of knowledge, not the end.


Message 7 of 16
mspeer
in reply to: dgorsman

Hi!

 

@dgorsman 

I know that not everything can be found internally or being fixed before the first release, but the problem is the changes to existing and working features in the same release with bug-fixes.

Just a "theoretically" example: In one release the import of a certain file format is broken, but Viewport works fine.

In the next release file import is fixed, but the Viewport is also updated, which added some bugs there which makes the import useless as you can't work with the imported files in Viewport now.

So you can choose between having a working Viewport or having the ability to import a certain file format.

You could say then wait for another release, but this may also have something updated which also will introduce new bugs.

(It's not possible to control a complex system when changing too much at the same time)

I don't see something wrong with focusing on fixing bugs before adding new features, which seems what Autodesk is also doing now again if necessary (for example with Maya 2018.5, which was a good release for me) .

 

That said, for me Maya 2019.2 is a pretty good release, but if i count all releases of the last 3 years and compare this against the number of releases that are usable for me...

 

But back to the initial post of the thread opener, if Maya 2019.2 really would be so bad as described, it could not work so good for me.

Message 8 of 16
Anonymous
in reply to: mspeer

As I said, I work in a "big" company. We use Maya in ALL the sectors of our production. We are all experiencing this problems. Different systems, different setups, with the same problems. Freelancers we work with are saying the same things. So, I'm sorry. The assumption from @cg_oglu  that there is something specific at my system causing this issues does not seem to be probable.

Message 9 of 16
Anonymous
in reply to: Christoph_Schaedl

"This crash screen you send to autodesk does not send enough data to get a repro scene out of it."
No, but should have enough information to detect problems. That's the reason this screen exists, right? What you're saying is that crash screen is useless unless you provide a sample of the scene. So why have it then?

 

"You dont have to send the client scene. Just delete everything that is confidential or build a new dummy scene."

Are you serious? Sometimes a model can be confidential. And the problem might be absolutely related to the problems. There is no way to do such thing. Answer me: Do you work in the industry??? It doesn't seem to be the case.

 

"Those problems are there for so long cause Autodesk is giant company. And therefore slow. New developers come and go. "
Yep. We all know this. But, will this argument be the excuse for all the the problems forever?

Autodesk will aways be a giant Company, and devs will always came and go. Will Maya have crippling problems forever because of this? 
 
"Rant does help only if you provide helpfull data. In many cases Maya doesnt crash on a new system with totally fresh created scenes. Old prefs, corrupted prefs. Old custom scripts. Old rigs and premade assets are most of the time the issue."

Well, Maya might often crash on a new system with an ongoing work started in a fresh new scene. We're working on new projects, so there are no old rigs, premade assets or custom scripts... It's just work with maya assets themselves!

 

I will post here some of the issues I've been facing, of course without providing the scenes for the reasons mentioned before. And will be the devs work (if they read this thread) to reproduce them.

 

Message 10 of 16
Anonymous
in reply to: Christoph_Schaedl

Here are some things I wrote in the past 3 months about problems related with Maya 2019... There are some ideas too... Hope it helps somehow

Note that my "rant" exists only because I love Maya, and I really wish the best for it.

 

START UP

There are times when Maya suddenly gets fatal error only by opening the program, and when it happens there is no way to open Maya until you delete your preferences.

Lots of problems with the program might be solved deleting the preferences. But setting them again every time things like this happen is painstaking. Specially with advanced users who have a lot of shortcuts etc.

Generally, we got a list of warnings and errors in the command line even in the first run with a fresh installed Maya. Something is wrong.

Some Maya's own setup might be corrupting its own preferences... I don't know

 

SELECTION

Let’s say you’re modeling something, splitting your polys etc. You select some faces and you want to invert the selection. Ok, you invert the selection and get the visual correspondence of this in the viewport, but it won’t work. If you, for instance, delete those newly selected faces, ALL the faces in your object will be deleted. So you need to undo this action, delete the object’s history before invert the selection of any of the poly’s components. This is particular to the 2019 version.

Now, for the selection aspect, Maya has some implementation problems with simple tools. An example is a simple edge loop or edge ring selection. It doesn’t consider the undo function. For instance, you’re selecting an array of edge loops (double clicking on an edge, then jumping one without selecting it, and so on) and you misselect one edge, if you undo this action and double click in the right edge the program will select a ring. It’s a simple thingy, but also annoying.

Speaking of the Devil, Maya begs, for more than a decade, array selection tools (like “select one face every 2 faces in this ring). I’ve seen this in other programs even before I started using Maya, and people have been building plugins for this for more than 10 years!

 

 

SYMMETRY

Symmetry in Maya is just… totally incomplete. If you have a symmetric object whose transformations are frozen in your scene anywhere in it but the center, it won’t work. By this standard the “Local” symmetry only works with an object that has its origins in the center of the scene. By this, the “local” or “world” symmetry don’t differ much. You also cannot toggle different but simultaneous axis of it. Symmetry between two different objects that are mirrored versions of one another simply does not exists and this is a huge problem. This implies that you can’t modify two symmetrical objects at once after your scene hierarchy is complete. Any tool that are more “legacy” (like sculpt geometry tool) and has a “Reflection” option will ever generate asymmetrical results.

Many of modeling tools don’t support symmetry or if they do, do it wrong. Simple face extrude won’t show the full manipulator when used with symmetry (only a single direction of extrusion), merge vertex tool, which automatically merge two vertices, will consider the mirrored selection as a common selection and wont merge two selected vertices, or will merge them all (selected and the mirrored reflection together) depending of the threshold.

 

MODELING

Maya is losing space to other applications on modeling standards. Yes, there is a “new” Sculpt section that let you sculpt polygons like in Mudbox or something. It's very nice for blendshapes for instance, but not as much for sculpting. When you see a program like Z-Brush and how it handles extreme subdivisions in viewport and its amazing tools, you realize it’s kind of a lost cause for Maya (at least, for now). As mentioned before, using symmetry will often produce unsymmetrical results. 

Standard poly modeling is pretty…. Standard in Maya. Modeling Toolkit was a hope back when it was implemented but its development stopped in some way. For instance, depending on how complex your model is, multi-cut will struggle to draw a loop, or cut a simple face. The more legacy tools don’t struggle this much and do the operations significantly faster than the newer (like insert edge tool, that also has an amazing “equal distance from edge” option that multi-cut doesn’t have).

Booleans had a huge leap in the 2014 version and stopped, but it is still in the stone age compared even with Blender, a free 3D program that handles Booleans flawlessly. Maybe the Maya development team has a lot to learn with Blender (and it’s hard for me to affirm this).

There are other issues, but those are the most problematic for me.

As technical modeling was never a thing for Maya, I won’t enter in the NURBS surfaces modelling here.

Shatter mesh effect just doesn't work. At all. Never. It's the same since Maya 6.0 and won't work. Create a cube, try to shatter it, won't work.

 

RIGGING AND ANIMATION

Painting skin weights is still buggy since… since I remember. It’s one of the most unstable parts of the program. You’ll realize that sometimes you will want to paint a full black influence of some joint in your mesh. If the mesh gets messed up in the process (like some vertex going suddenly to the center of the scene), Maya will surely crash in a few clicks. Save your scene and manage the damage after it crashes. By the way, Maya WILL CRASH in some point in the rigging process. I guarantee it to you. So be aware.

Using the new Human IK kit is a joy, until certain point. First, no A-posed character compatibility. Second, controls have their own transform values, and doesn’t matter the numbers you put in for them. Foot controls are always tilted downwards in a 45 angle which make a character’s foot rotation animation a pain.

Working with Effectors is still horrible. Imagine you set your effectors, make them work, save your scene, close Maya, run it again and open this scene again. The effectors WILL be showing messed up results, specially if you animate the IK Blent T, IK Blend R and, specially, IK Pull. I think something to settle a little bit of this problem was made for the 2019 version, but there are problems still.

If you animate some of your character’s controls and you list them in your Graph Editor, you’ll see a huge number of affected controls listed there that you don’t even knew they existed in the first place. Second, tangent modifications won’t do anything with their animation curves. This is immensely frustrating. Really, tangents just don’t matter for the “secondary” controls created by the Human IK Interface.

Retargeting animation with the HIK system and time editor will probably mess fur and hair effects. If you use plugins like Yeti, you’re doomed. DON’T USE HIK WITH YETI. They won’t work together. Texture reference won’t work. It is a mess.

Sometimes scrolling the timeline in an animated scene will crash Maya for some reason... I tried all the evalution modes... some can handle the scenes for longer times, but...

There is a problem with namespaces that should be alerted too (even if it doesn’t belong in the animation category). There are times that some namespaces will be maintained in the system even if you close your scene and create a new one. If you have a pipeline that somehow uses namespaces, this is problematic. It also might cripple animations if you decide to open the previous scene, for instance. Maya will rename the fresh opened scene namespaces that are equal of those already stored, and if you have a HIK character animated with the automatically renamed namespace, goodbye animations.

 

TEXTURING / RENDERING

Not that much of problems here but the standard. That’s because people WILL use third-party plugins for rendering. But in the texture department, oh boy.

If you open a scene with texture shading display, it will crash Maya. Not always, but almost. If you work with this mode enabled, it will crash. EDIT HERE - For some reason, resetting the preferences made the problem less frequent.

Maya struggles (and always did) to display textures on viewport and I don’t know why. Multi-patched textures are a mess. First, Maya admits only absolute paths for them, which can cripple a projects in a remote render farm.

Maya NEEDS to open the Material Viewer every time you start Hypershade, even if you chose not. It opens it, and then closes it. If you have a complex scene, you are doomed in the first open of Hypershade. Maya might crash.

 

Let’s talk about UV editor.

First, thank you for the UV Toolkit. That's amazing, for real. But let's go to the issues:
Textures will not be shown when you open the editor, even if the option to show them is turned on. You'll have to press the checker map button, an then the image button. And sometimes displaying the texture map in it will cause Maya to crash.

Sometimes freshly unwrapped UVS will be magically turned in their previous positions/wrapping just by pressing 1 or 3 (for flat or smooth previews). If this happens, you've just lost your freshly unwrapped UVS. Pinning the UVs might kind solve the trick, but will make animation evaluations slower. You list all the hypergraph nodes connected to the object to see if there is something wrong and there is nothing wrong. But still, this happens A LOT. This problem exists since Maya 2011. It's been 8 years, posting things here, and this persists till today.
 
Well, there are a lot more... I might post here sometime again.

Message 11 of 16
Christoph_Schaedl
in reply to: Anonymous

Im working in the industry for 15+ years and most of the time its not a problem to create a repro scene.

Just strip out everything under NDA. Or recreate the scene with an other asset. I do that for a lot of our crash files here.

 

Last one was an issue witht he crease set editor and the cut tool in maya2018 and 2019.

I created a repro scene and Autodesk could nail down the issue and its fixed in the next version.

 

Same for the issue with the delta mush. One user here in the forum create a repor scene and Autodesk was able to fix the bug.

 

If you know there is a bug you should report them in the most usefull way.

 

The crash screen is more an indicator that a certain tool does crash a lot.

If you are the only one creating those CER bug it wont get much attention.

 

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https://linktr.ee/cg_oglu
Message 12 of 16

Your texturing Hypershade issue would be a good example for a repro scene.

Just throw in some randow objects. Assign a production amount of textures and send that crashing file to Autodesk.

In some cases if the client does allow it you can sign a NDA with Autodesk and send the file in private.

 

Autodesk does not have such files for testing.

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https://linktr.ee/cg_oglu
Message 13 of 16
Anonymous
in reply to: Christoph_Schaedl

Hello,

It's not common for simple scenes to crash, so it will be difficult to reproduce a bug from a scene made by scratch.

Here is what i'm gonna do - I'm trying a new personal project. As soon something begin to fail, I'll send you scene samples.

Thank you very much for listening to my rants, and sorry if I offended anyone... This was never the intention.

Message 14 of 16
gaboreturi
in reply to: Anonymous

This is really should be a top topic for Autodesk. I use Maya 2020 in 2022 assuming it has less bugs. No! The further the years passing by, the more fragile, buggy and errors for every day(!) in Maya. It used to be the best for me, but now I feel like 1 step forward 2 step back. And also Autodesk fix things that shouldn't be touched. I understand users afraid to say things, but this should be a top topic. 

 

Additionally I find a site where all mew bugs showed... Couldn't even scroll to the bottom of the list it was so huge. I understand Autodesk above try to defend their software and also understand their professionals and working hard, but we are too!

 

At least we artists create and not the software.

Message 15 of 16
rhoetzlein
in reply to: Anonymous

Talking about bug repos shifts the conversation away from the real issues. This isn't about specific bugs. To list and capture all the specific bugs would be too much effort and not really worthwhile. The community is trying to communicate that Maya is too buggy overall, and therefore the only real solution is a deep rewrite. As developing managers and VPs, at some point you have to say - this bug list is too long, maybe we need to fundamentally redesign this. Bugs are not the only issue. The challenges are also usability and friendliness for novices.

As a professor in media arts, I taught with Maya for 2 years. It was a horrible experience - the crashes were so frequent I had to apologize to students who couldn't finish their projects. Since then I've switched to Blender and the experience is so different.

Message 16 of 16
BurkhardRammner
in reply to: Anonymous

I remember postings at CGTalk back in 2002. Even back then the users were so frustrated because of all the bugs and suggested a total rewrite. Things did not get better. One thing was clear: with every passed year, Blender would get better and better and eventually surpass Maya in every aspect. And now it looks like it already did.
If the Porsche driving managers from Autodesk would just understand one thing before its too late and Maya is nothing more but history: open source this software, maybe then it will stay competetive.

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