Model States, Frame Gen and IDW Annotations

[julesgf]

Hi All

I am seeing a lot of problems associated with this issue https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/inventor/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Canno... 

We need to use suppression to measure area and mass for example. If we have created drawings with these assemblies, and I use the suggested work around, most / all of the annotations on the associated parts in an IDW will lose their reference / connection to the geometry and disappear forever! This is incredibly painful.

In addition, the mass and area calculations are incorrect using the work around. If I edit the frame gen assembly in-place and suppress some of the frame. Then return to the master assembly level and query the mass. The calculation includes the full mass of the frame gen assembly even though some of it is suppressed! This is dangerous.

Unfortunately these issues represent a substantial degradation in functionality from LODs! I'm assuming that the issues are a consequence of speed improvements that came with model states. ie. if I don't keep track of the geometry references that a dimension was attached to it's faster but we've lost the baby with the bathwater.

Regards

JF

[johnsonshiue]

Hi! I believe you are talking about the ability to suppress occurrences from a different level (reported as INVGEN-54692). This ability was allowed in LOD Suppress on 2021 and earlier. But, it is no longer allowed in Model States on 2022.

Please note that LOD is a memory management tool. The ability to suppress across levels is merely for reducing memory consumption purpose temporarily (the '~' sign). This means the particular component occurrence is suppressed from a top-level assembly's perspective but it is not suppressed with the hosting subassembly.

Besides not showing the occurrence in the graphics, such suppression does not change the design (BOM, mass, properties, and parameters).

Model States is meant to offer design variations. Such cross-level suppression operation isn't compatible. As a result, the workflow is no longer offered. Instead, you can use Design View to hide the occurrence (equivalent to LOD suppress). I suggest you use Design View to manage the variations.

Many thanks!

[julesgf]

Thank you Johnson

We make extensive use of design views. Unfortunately design views cant dont solve these problems.

Design views, to my knowledge, be used to measure weight or area of the visible components.

This is core functionality.

I suppose I can derive the assembly into a part file that is linked to the relevant design view and set it's material to a guess of the average of the density of the derived parts but that is a terrible solution.

2nd issue is that model states, which are great, aren't being linked to drawing views well.

When a model state is edited we are finding that it is common for annotations to "drop-off" the drawing view, even though the relevant parts have not been suppresses / unsuppressed. It's as if the editing of the model state changes the reference code of the line / face / edge etc changes and the annotation looses it's attachment and vanishes forever.

Regards

JF

JF

[johnsonshiue]

Hi! I am sorry I am confused. You mentioned that you leverage Design View for measurement. As far as I can tell, neither Design View nor LOD alters the mass prop. Could you explain what workflow you use to see different measurements?

A Model State can be linked to a drawing view. I am not aware of a workflow that drawing view is not linked to a Model State. Do you mind sharing an example?

Many thanks!

[julesgf]

LODs did alter the mass calculation, when you hit update it would ask if you want the calc for the current LOD or the total.

"I am not aware of a workflow that drawing view is not linked to a Model State."

I am referring to the annotations, not the view. The annotations drop of the view when the model state is edited. Especially bad with frame generated geometry.

JF

[johnsonshiue]

Hi! I guess you were talking about LOD, not DV. Yes, you are right. LOD does allow you to evaluate mass prop based on the component suppression status (including suppressed occurrences). However, only one mass prop is allowed. You have to activate each LOD to see the mass prop. But, the mass prop cannot be linked to a drawing, since only one mass prop can be shown at a time. The mass prop does not persist. You need to activate a different LOD and compute the mass prop (iProperties -> Physical). It is also true that DV cannot drive mass prop.

The missing workflow as of 2022 Model States is about the ability to activate a "view" and evaluate the non-persistent mass prop. The new workflow using Model States is to activate the Design View, edit the Frame subassembly, and suppress the invisible frame members. Return to top -> evaluate the non-persistent mass prop.

In terms of capturing the mass prop in the drawing, there is no behavioral change.

Many thanks!

[julesgf]

the 2 issues,

• mass / area calc 
• annotations falling off

are separate issues, not related to each other

as I wrote in the first post, the "The new workflow using Model States is to activate the Design View, edit the Frame subassembly, and suppress the invisible frame members. Return to top -> evaluate the non-persistent mass prop." does not work. The mass calculated is incorrect! The calculation does not account for the suppressed frame elements.

JF

[julesgf]

P.S.

I guess the the issues are separate but they do exacerbate each other terribly.

Even if the workaround did work it would cause pretty much all the annotations on a drawing of the assembly to fall off,

Try creating a frame gen assembly, add some parts in the top assembly, create a drawing of it,  cover it in dimensions balloons line colour properties. etc.

Now go back to the assembly and try to apply the "The new workflow using Model States is to activate the Design View, edit the Frame subassembly, and suppress the invisible frame members. Return to top -> evaluate the non-persistent mass prop." strategy.

Now go into the frame gen assembly and unsuppress everything. Return to top.

Check your drawing. Magic, all the dimensions etc etc have disappeared!

JF

[johnsonshiue]

Hi JF,

I took a closer look at the mass prop workflow. I believe there is a bug here. To see the up-to-date mass (including suppressed frame members), you will need to return to the top -> Manage -> Rebuild All. Then go to iProperties -> Physical -> Update. Rebuild All should not be needed.

I am working with the project team to understand it better.

Many thanks!

[julesgf]

Thanks Johnson 

Are you able to replicate the annotation disappearing problem too?

JF

[johnsonshiue]

Hi JF,

I am not able to reproduce the missing annotation behavior persistently. I think it depends on the annotation and the type of change on the model. Please share an example that exhibits the behavior.

Many thanks!

[julesgf]

I will try to find a publishable example. However maybe it's more efferent to wait for a fix for this bug https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/inventor/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Canno... and see if that resolves the drawing annotation issues.

Cheers

JF

[johnsonshiue]

Hi JF,

I am sorry I might not have made it clear earlier. I have checked the latest status for INVGEN-54692. It is closed as a limitation. There isn't a near-term plan to support suppressing frame members or any component in a subassembly per Model State.

The mass prop behavior in this case is indeed wrong, which has been reported as INVGEN-55801.

Many thanks!

[julesgf]

If I'm reading that correctly there is no plan to make Model States work with Frame Generated models?

That seems extraordinary. LODs and Design Reps worked well and now we have Design Rep only?

JF

[johnsonshiue]

Hi! Let me make sure I make the right statement. The mass prop issue here is a bug. The mass prop has to be true per Model State. Each Model State should have unique mass prop.

Regarding the ability to suppress occurrences (components in different levels), it was available like visibility overrides but it is no longer supported in Model States. The user needs to use Design View to manage the occurrence visibility.

Regarding the ability to drive skeletal model or adaptive model using Model States (also applying to C&H, FG, and T&P), it is not supported. And, I am not aware of a near-term plan to make it happen. Please feel free to submit the ideas to Inventor Ideas forum.

Please share an example that exhibits the annotation issues. I would like to understand the behavior better. It is either a bug or a limitation. But, I need to confirm.

Many thanks!

[julesgf]

I will try to extract a shareable example of this if I can make time.
It does seem a moot point if there is no plan to support suppression in
frame gen assemblies.
I've developed a work around along the lines outlined earlier, ie. derive
the assembly into a part file associated with a des view rep and set a
material in the part and use that to spit out the mass and area props. It's
a PITA but it works.