Redundanzen in der Dynamischen Simulation und Aufteilung auf lasttragende Flächen

uw
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Redundanzen in der Dynamischen Simulation und Aufteilung auf lasttragende Flächen

uw
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Hallo Inventor-Experten!

 

Ich habe in diesem Forum schon ein paar Mal Fragen zur Dynamischen Simulation und FEM gestellt, und jedes Mal wurde mir umfassend, zeitnah und kompetent geholfen. Danke erstmal dafür!
Leider muss ich wieder mal lästig sein, da ich bei folgendem Thema nicht allein weiter komme.

 

Ich habe einen Kurbeltrieb konstruiert, um Erfahrungen mit der Dynamischen Simulation zu sammeln.

(siehe zip-Dokument im Anhang!)

Selbstverständlich ist mir klar, dass die Bauteile in dieser Form weder fertigbar, noch montierbar sind, aber darum soll es jetzt nicht gehen!

 

Ich hätte zu dieser Simulation zwei Fragen:

  1. Ich habe die Baugruppe mit vier Drehgelenken und einem Zylindergelenk zusammengebaut. Mir ist auch klar, warum sich dabei Redundanzen im oberen Pleuellager ergeben. Die Translation in z-Richtung und die Rotation um x wird doppelt blockiert. Einerseits vom Zylindergelenk andererseits vom Drehgelenk im unteren Pleuellager.
    (siehe: 010_Kurbeltrieb - mit Redundanzen.iam)


    Kurbeltrieb_01.png





    Grundsätzlich funktioniert der Mechanismus ja (z.B. konstante Drehzahl der Kurbelwelle und eine Feder zwischen Kolben und Zylinderkopf, um Kompression zu simulieren…), aber um die Belastungen in der FEM richtig einleiten zu können, muss ich (soweit ich das mitbekommen habe) die Redundanzen wegbringen!
    Ich habe lange mit diversen anderen Gelenken experimentiert (Kugelgelenke, Punkt-Linie etc.), bin aber auf keinen grünen Zweig gekommen.
    Letztlich habe ich mich zu folgenden „Pfusch“ entschieden:
    Ich habe das obere Pleuellager durch ein räumliches Gelenk ersetzt, und einfach die Translationen um x und y und die Rotation um y gesperrt.


    Kurbeltrieb_02.png





    Jetzt bin ich die Redundanzen los und der Mechanismus funktioniert offensichtlich einwandfrei:
    (siehe: 010_Kurbeltrieb - ohne Redundanzen.iam)

    Kurbeltrieb_03.png
































    Das einzig lästige ist aber die folgende Fehlermeldung:

    Kurbeltrieb_04.png


    Wie gesagt, es funktioniert, aber ich unterrichte an einer österreichischen HTL (vergleichbar mit einem technischen Gymnasium in D), und ich möchte nur ungern im Unterricht den Schülern sagen: „Ignoriert einfach die Warnmeldungen, es funktioniert so auch!“. Wie im Programmier-Unterricht: Dort versuche ich den Schülern beizubringen: Ein Programm ist erst dann fertig, wenn es keine Errors und auch keine Warnings mehr gibt!

    Hat jemand eine Idee, wie ich diese Redundanzen eleganter lösen kann?

  2. Eine zweite Frage hätte ich auch noch: Das Kurbelwellenlager ist nur an einer Lagerschale definiert. In der MKS müsste das ja egal sein, es handelt sich ja sowieso um starre Körper. Wenn ich bei der Übergabe der Belastungen an die FEM (wie in der Realität) beide Lagerschalen als „lastragende Flächen“ definiere, wird das (quasistatische) Gleichgewicht dann richtig hergestellt, oder verfälsche ich damit das Ergebnis?


    Kurbeltrieb_05.png

 

Vielen Dank im Voraus und ganz liebe Grüße aus dem verschneiten Süden Österreichs!

 Reinhard

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j.palmeL29YX
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Zur ersten Frage (Redundanz entfernen): 

Beim aktuellen Stand kann man die Redundanz am einfachsten entfernen. wenn man das Zylindergelenk zwischen Pleuel und Kurbelwelle durch ein Kugelgelenk ersetzt. Dazu vorher in beiden Bauteilen je einen Arbeitspunkt erstellen und diese zur Definition des Kugelgelenkes benutzen. 

Falls Du es detaillierter benötigst laß es mich wissen, .... 

>>Ergebnis<< 

Jürgen Palme
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j.palmeL29YX
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Zur zweiten Frage: 

Wenn die Lagerkräfte für eine FEM benötigt werden, würde ich die Kurbelwelle rechts und links einzeln lagern. Beispielsweise rechts ein Punkt/Linie Gelenk und links ein Kugelgelenk. Damit ist die Kurbelwelle eindeutig "eingespannt"  und im Ausgabediagramm der Dynamischen Simulation können die an den Lagern wirkenden Radialkräfte für jedes der Lager getrennt ausgewertet werden. 

>>Lagerung<<

Im Video sind die beiden Lagergelenke zu sehen. Zur Überprüfung der Plausibilität habe ich erst mal eine Simulation ohne Bewegung laufen lassen, nur die Schwerkraft wirkt. Die Kurbelwelle wiegt ca. 10 kg. Im Ausgabediagramm ist zu sehen, daß erwartungsgemäß das rechte Lager wenig zu tragen hat (ca. 5N), das linke Lager hingegen (wo sich die Schwungmasse befindet) ca. 95N - macht in der Summe 100 N (entspricht der Gesamtmasse  von 10 kg.) 

Wenn sich der Mechanismus bewegt sehen die Ergebnisse natürlich ganz anders aus, aber Du kannst die Kräfte aus de DS dann direkt an die FEM übergeben und recht gute Voraussagen bezüglich der Betriebsfestigkeit erlangen.  

 

 

Wenn meine Antwort Dein Problem löst, klicke auf die Schaltfläche "als Lösung akzeptieren". Dies kann anderen helfen, schneller Lösungen zu finden.

Jürgen Palme
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j.palmeL29YX
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Akzeptierte Lösung

Im Anhang ein Beispiel, wie ich die Baugruppe in etwa aufbauen würde. (Achtung: einige Teile wurden geringfügig verändert, aber nicht umbenannt) . 

Um halbwegs realitätsnahe Ergebnisse zu erzielen würde ich an der Kurbelwelle die aufgezwungene Drehbewegung unterdrücken/weglassen und stattdessen ein Bremsmoment (als Betriebslast) hinzufügen *1) . Und die Kraft auf den Kolben nicht mit einer Feder simulieren, sondern über ein Eingabediagramm in Abhängigkeit vom Drehwinkel definieren. 

Es liegt natürlich in Deinem Ermessen, wie tief Du im Rahmen einer Schulung in die Materie eindringen willst ... 

 

*1) Ich benutze (für Demonstrationen) hierzu gern eine der Drehbewegung zugewiesene Dämpfung. Dadurch steigt das bremsende Drehmoment mit zunehmender Drehzahl, so daß sich bei gleichbleibenden Antriebskräften nach einiger Zeit eine konstante (leicht wellige) Drehzahl einstellt. 

Jürgen Palme
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uw
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Hallo Jürgen.

 

Vielen herzlichen Dank für deine Hilfe und für die ausführliche und kompetente Erklärung!

Eigentlich ist die Sache im Grunde ganz logisch:

Für eine statisch (quasistatisch) bestimmte Lagerung der Kurbelwelle dürfen am Ende des Tages nur sechs unbekannte Größen übrigbleiben.

(Ein gewisser Herr Jean-Baptiste le Rond d’Alembert hat ja mal behauptet: Die Summe aller Kräfte in x, y, und z-Richtung und die Summe aller aller Momente um die x, y und z-Achse müssen 0 sein)

Ich benötige also ein Fest- und ein Loslager mit insgesamt sechs nicht gesperrten Freiheitsgraden.

Ein Festlager im Raum sperrt drei translatorische Freiheitsgrade, entspricht also einem Kugelgelenk (bleiben drei Unbekannte).

Ein Loslager sperrt zwei translatorische und einen rotatorischen Freiheitsgrad (bleiben auch drei Unbekannte, also insgesamt sechs!).

 

Leider hab ich bis jetzt noch keine "brauchbaren" Fachbücher zur Dynamischen Simulation in Inventor gefunden. Das Buch "Simulation mit Inventor" von Günter Scheuermann ist zwar recht übersichtlich und umfangreich gestaltet, aber aus meiner Sicht ist das Niveau doch recht seicht... Zum Beispiel im Kapitel FEM-Analyse rechet er dasselbe Bauteil einmal mit einem 2D-Netz und einmal mit einem Tetraedernetz. Er bekommt unterschiedliche Ergebnisse, und sein einziger Kommentar dazu ist: "...die Simulation zeigt aus völlig unverständlichen Gründen deutlich andere Werte an." Ohne nähere Analyse des Fehlers finde ich das - gelinde gesagt - etwas peinlich...

Ich hab mir vor ein paar Tagen das Buch "Up and Running with Autodesk Inventor Professional 2020: Part 2 - Dynamic Simulation" von Wasim Younis bestellt. Ich hab bisher nur Gutes über dieses Buch gelesen, ich bin schon sehr gespannt darauf. Falls jemand noch einen Buchtipp für mich hat, wäre ich dankbar!

 

Ganz liebe Grüße und noch einen schönen Sonntag

 Reinhard

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j.palmeL29YX
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Diese beiden Bücher (wenn auch in sehr viel älterer Auflage) stehen auch bei mir in Griffnähe. Noch etwas näher befindet sich die F1-Taste. Der Rest ist (bei mir) Try + Error + ...  dieses Forum. 😉 (andere einschlägige Quellen wie www.cad.de oder Autodesk University u.ä. inbegriffen).  

 

Zur "Ehrenrettung" von Scheuermann sei gesagt: Auch andere international bekannte und anerkannte Koryphäen wie z. B. Jeffrey Mather stolpern über einige Ungereimtheiten in den Simulations-Tools und nehmen diese mehr oder minder zähneknirschend zur Kenntnis. Leider ist Inventor seit vielen Jahren auf diesen Gebieten kaum (wenn überhaupt) weiterentwickelt oder verbessert worden. Ändern würde sich vermutlich nur dann etwas, wenn "von unten" mehr Druck in Richtung Autodesk ausgeübt würde. 

 

cu

 

 

Jürgen Palme
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We use AgrantSEM to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by AgrantSEM. Ads are based on both AgrantSEM data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that AgrantSEM has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to AgrantSEM to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. AgrantSEM Privacy Policy
Bidtellect
We use Bidtellect to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bidtellect. Ads are based on both Bidtellect data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bidtellect has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bidtellect to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bidtellect Privacy Policy
Bing
We use Bing to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bing. Ads are based on both Bing data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bing has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bing to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bing Privacy Policy
G2Crowd
We use G2Crowd to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by G2Crowd. Ads are based on both G2Crowd data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that G2Crowd has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to G2Crowd to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. G2Crowd Privacy Policy
NMPI Display
We use NMPI Display to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by NMPI Display. Ads are based on both NMPI Display data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that NMPI Display has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to NMPI Display to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. NMPI Display Privacy Policy
VK
We use VK to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by VK. Ads are based on both VK data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that VK has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to VK to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. VK Privacy Policy
Adobe Target
We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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