5-axis tool orientation vs tool axis

[DarthBane55]

Hi, I want to point out some limitations, and, at the same time, if someone knows I'm wrong and doing things wrong, and that what I want to do is doable, well please tell me!

I cannot share the part sorry.

Right now, the way I see it, the 5-axis is extremely limited, because:

1-The tool tilt is in reference to the current tool orientation axis.  It makes sense, however, where can we tell it how far the machine can tilt?  I did load our machine in the setup, all it does is tell me that I am tilting too far for the machine, but the machine is not limiting the tilt when generating the toolpath.  So if I am machining at B-90, and the machine can go to B-100 max, but I want 20deg tilt, well, the path will generate no problem, because it has no clue that it's beyond the machine's limit. 

2-If I want to maintain a tilt of 30deg in relation to the part, but upwards, (refer to pictures below), it does not seem possible to do (not fixed 30deg, but 30deg relative to part, so changes constantly - 5-axis).  The tilt is a cone around the tool orientation, it goes all around the tool orientation axis.  That seems really weird, usually we can set a limit for the tilt, in any direction.  This limitation causes all the 5-axis toolpaths to be extremely limited in use.  I find that setting the tilt to 30 deg works in 1 direction, and when the tool comes back, it flips 30deg in the bottom direction, so goes B-120 (overtravel B-axis).

3-I tried steep and shallow because it has a few more option for controlling the tool axis, but the only patterns are scallop and parallel, which is not something I can use for this part.  Need a blend between 2 curves.

4-It's missing a projection vector.  Right now, the path is generated from the point of view (projection) of the tool orientation, so you have a limit on what you can do with the tilt again.  If you would separate the projection orientation from the tool orientation, you could machine the side face easily and control the tilt from the tool orientation of your choice, which would allow for a bit better control on keeping the tool more to 1 side of the tilt, since the cone would be from the angle of your choice, instead of being constrained to the projection vector.  This has to be separate for being really functional, in some cases.  The projection vector being the same as the tool orientation is a big limit, because if the tool orientation cannot see a face, it won't machine it.  Separating the 2 allows to see the face and use a different tool orientation to machine it.

5-Using blend, you see on 1 picture it sees a line between surfaces as a fence.  It wants to jump over it.  The faces are all tangent, this problem does not occur without enabling 5-axis.  I tweaked the tolerance to the maximum it will take before refusing to generate the path, and that's what on the picture.  Tolerance 0.005".  Anything smaller increases the number of jumps.

I can do this part in 3-axis, but would have liked to keep a tilt relative to the part, unfortunately seems impossible.

I was evaluating the manufacturing extensions, but it seems I won't be opting in that anytime soon.  Again, if

someone sees that I'm going all wrong about it, or know a better way to make what I'm after work, please let me know!

[DarthBane55]

Hi, I want to point out some limitations, and, at the same time, if someone knows I'm wrong and doing things wrong, and that what I want to do is doable, well please tell me!

I cannot share the part sorry.

Right now, the way I see it, the 5-axis is extremely limited, because:

1-The tool tilt is in reference to the current tool orientation axis.  It makes sense, however, where can we tell it how far the machine can tilt?  I did load our machine in the setup, all it does is tell me that I am tilting too far for the machine, but the machine is not limiting the tilt when generating the toolpath.  So if I am machining at B-90, and the machine can go to B-100 max, but I want 20deg tilt, well, the path will generate no problem, because it has no clue that it's beyond the machine's limit. 

2-If I want to maintain a tilt of 30deg in relation to the part, but upwards, (refer to pictures below), it does not seem possible to do (not fixed 30deg, but 30deg relative to part, so changes constantly - 5-axis).  The tilt is a cone around the tool orientation, it goes all around the tool orientation axis.  That seems really weird, usually we can set a limit for the tilt, in any direction.  This limitation causes all the 5-axis toolpaths to be extremely limited in use.  I find that setting the tilt to 30 deg works in 1 direction, and when the tool comes back, it flips 30deg in the bottom direction, so goes B-120 (overtravel B-axis).

3-I tried steep and shallow because it has a few more option for controlling the tool axis, but the only patterns are scallop and parallel, which is not something I can use for this part.  Need a blend between 2 curves.

4-It's missing a projection vector.  Right now, the path is generated from the point of view (projection) of the tool orientation, so you have a limit on what you can do with the tilt again.  If you would separate the projection orientation from the tool orientation, you could machine the side face easily and control the tilt from the tool orientation of your choice, which would allow for a bit better control on keeping the tool more to 1 side of the tilt, since the cone would be from the angle of your choice, instead of being constrained to the projection vector.  This has to be separate for being really functional, in some cases.  The projection vector being the same as the tool orientation is a big limit, because if the tool orientation cannot see a face, it won't machine it.  Separating the 2 allows to see the face and use a different tool orientation to machine it.

5-Using blend, you see on 1 picture it sees a line between surfaces as a fence.  It wants to jump over it.  The faces are all tangent, this problem does not occur without enabling 5-axis.  I tweaked the tolerance to the maximum it will take before refusing to generate the path, and that's what on the picture.  Tolerance 0.005".  Anything smaller increases the number of jumps.

I can do this part in 3-axis, but would have liked to keep a tilt relative to the part, unfortunately seems impossible.

I was evaluating the manufacturing extensions, but it seems I won't be opting in that anytime soon.  Again, if

someone sees that I'm going all wrong about it, or know a better way to make what I'm after work, please let me know!

[a.laasW8M6T]

I think you are correct on all points.

Steep and shallow has the best control over 5 axis stuff, but as you know has limited actual toolpath options.

The best would be if Flow(Preview) and Blend could get some of those options in multi-axis like the tool axis limits, override tilt angle and collision avoidance.

But I wonder if that has been shelved and we will see a better toolpath in the upcoming 5-axis pocket finishing toolpath from Module works. That will allow the use of barrel/circle segment cutters too.(I hope that it being called "Pocket finishing" doesn't mean it will just do pockets, as I would have much more use for external contours)

It would be nice if the toolpaths calculated based on the machine configuration but I don't know if that will ever be the case.

at the moment you have to calculate, then simulate to see if it works.

[a.laasW8M6T]

I think you are correct on all points.

Steep and shallow has the best control over 5 axis stuff, but as you know has limited actual toolpath options.

The best would be if Flow(Preview) and Blend could get some of those options in multi-axis like the tool axis limits, override tilt angle and collision avoidance.

But I wonder if that has been shelved and we will see a better toolpath in the upcoming 5-axis pocket finishing toolpath from Module works. That will allow the use of barrel/circle segment cutters too.(I hope that it being called "Pocket finishing" doesn't mean it will just do pockets, as I would have much more use for external contours)

It would be nice if the toolpaths calculated based on the machine configuration but I don't know if that will ever be the case.

at the moment you have to calculate, then simulate to see if it works.

[al.whatmough]

But I wonder if that has been shelved and we will see a better toolpath in the upcoming 5-axis pocket finishing toolpath from Module works. That will allow the use of barrel/circle segment cutters too.(I hope that it being called "Pocket finishing" doesn't mean it will just do pockets, as I would have much more use for external contours)

A few comments on this:

• The new toolpaths from ModuleWorks most certainly DO NOT mean we are shelving our own toolpath development.
• We are actively working on ensuring consistency so that the controls you see for 5 Axis in steep and shallow exist in all other places we have 5-axis control.  For us, consistency is non-negotiable.
• We are aware of and working on support for barrel tools outside of our efforts to deliver 5 Axis pocketing. 

Now, in making the statements above, I have to say, I didn't make promises and dates, legally, I can't.   With that said, I know you all know me well enough to know my relationship with this community matters, so I wouldn't just say that took to keep you happy.  At the end of the day, you are buying a tool from us to do a job, if you need a tool for a job you are doing today that we don't have, it doesn't really matter at what point in the future we will have it, you need to get the job done today!   So, I trust my comments don't cause distraction.  At the same time, I did think it is important to address what could become a misconception of our forward-looking toolpath strategy as a result of our partnership with Moduleworks.    

I hope this helps,

Al

[al.whatmough]

But I wonder if that has been shelved and we will see a better toolpath in the upcoming 5-axis pocket finishing toolpath from Module works. That will allow the use of barrel/circle segment cutters too.(I hope that it being called "Pocket finishing" doesn't mean it will just do pockets, as I would have much more use for external contours)

A few comments on this:

• The new toolpaths from ModuleWorks most certainly DO NOT mean we are shelving our own toolpath development.
• We are actively working on ensuring consistency so that the controls you see for 5 Axis in steep and shallow exist in all other places we have 5-axis control.  For us, consistency is non-negotiable.
• We are aware of and working on support for barrel tools outside of our efforts to deliver 5 Axis pocketing. 

Now, in making the statements above, I have to say, I didn't make promises and dates, legally, I can't.   With that said, I know you all know me well enough to know my relationship with this community matters, so I wouldn't just say that took to keep you happy.  At the end of the day, you are buying a tool from us to do a job, if you need a tool for a job you are doing today that we don't have, it doesn't really matter at what point in the future we will have it, you need to get the job done today!   So, I trust my comments don't cause distraction.  At the same time, I did think it is important to address what could become a misconception of our forward-looking toolpath strategy as a result of our partnership with Moduleworks.    

I hope this helps,

Al

[jbisme]

I believe you and I trust you. As you know, after decades of being around CADCAM, I believe very, very few people in the CAM business, some of whom thankfully no longer work for Autodesk. 

I hope Autodesk management realizes how lucky they are to have you. 

[jbisme]

I believe you and I trust you. As you know, after decades of being around CADCAM, I believe very, very few people in the CAM business, some of whom thankfully no longer work for Autodesk. 

I hope Autodesk management realizes how lucky they are to have you. 

[a.laasW8M6T]

@DarthBane55 

Just noticed today that there is now options for the upgraded multiaxis controls in blend and flow under preview

Gives the ability to use collison detection and tool axis limits.

seems to have been snuck in without being announced in the last minor update

[a.laasW8M6T]

@DarthBane55 

Just noticed today that there is now options for the upgraded multiaxis controls in blend and flow under preview

Gives the ability to use collison detection and tool axis limits.

seems to have been snuck in without being announced in the last minor update

[DarthBane55]

Oh that's good!  nice addition!

[DarthBane55]

Oh that's good!  nice addition!