Turning Post Assistanc - Emco WinNC Fanuc 21TB

Turning Post Assistanc - Emco WinNC Fanuc 21TB

spumco
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Message 1 of 17

Turning Post Assistanc - Emco WinNC Fanuc 21TB

spumco
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I've recently acquired an older Emco 325-II lathe with a Fanuc 21TB control.  It's a PC-based (WinNC) system so there aren't any actual Fanuc hardware components in it.

 

The lathe has a 12 tool turret, with 6 live/driven tool positions.  So this is an XZ lathe with C positioning - not a simple XZ machine, but not a full-blown XYZ sub-spindle lathe either.

 

Problem is finding a post processor...  Emco has changed the base Fanuc 21TB by adding/editing G & M codes to support the C-axis and driven tools.

 

I know I'm going to need a modified post, but not sure where to start.  I need to edit a number of the various G/M-codes to get some functions working:

  • C-axis mode (there is a pneumatic cylinder that moves the positioning servo in to engagement with the spindle)
  • Parts catcher
  • Chuck/collet clamp/unclamp
  • Tailstock extend/retract (pneumatic ram type tailstock)
  • Etc.

 

Should I start with the generic Fanuc Turning PP, or try to 'de-feature' one of the PP's for a more complicated XYZ lathe?  The generic post appears to have some 'unsupported' features commented, but I have no idea how or if those are enabled and sorted out - maybe they're generic comments carried over from another PP?

 

In case anyone wants to have a go at this with me I've attached the overview pages from the Emco manual, including the codes Emco modified/added to the base 21TB control.

 

Any/all suggestions welcome.

 

Thanks,

Ralph

 

 

 

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Replies (16)
Message 2 of 17

jameshorne0503
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Advocate
Accepted solution

Hi!

 

My approach would be to take the Fanuc turning post and un-comment the features you need. By the looks of things it's been written in such a way that makes it easier to edit. I'd recommend taking it slow and editing one part at a time and then testing a program.

 

Some good resources to help in post-processor editing are:

A recent blog: https://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/blog/a-quick-introduction-to-editing-post-processors/?_... 

Autodesk's Technical FAQ: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/hsm-post-processor-forum/technical-faq/td-p/7473258

John Saunders' intro the Visual Studio Code Post Processor Editing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OWT-O4oN8E

 

If you get stuck at any point you can ask for help here or over in the HSM Post Processors forum.

Hope this helps!

Message 3 of 17

spumco
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I saw the Saunders video but it didn't click at the time - thanks for the reminder.

 

I'll have a go at it as you suggested...  I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

 

Thanks for the direction!

 

-R

Message 4 of 17

fnavarrop
Contributor
Contributor

Hello, I'm actually using this WinNC software because we have a lathe and milling machines.

 

Actually i've been working in editing postprocessor for mill/turn machine with fanuc 21i TB working in EMCO machine, the  post actually has a little error with M52/M53 code (i'm trying to solve it), but it works fine with all the other process (roughing, finishing, face, etc) Here you have the post that I'm using right now, use carefully because can make some collisions, double check G-code before using on your machine. Use it at your own risk. if you can help with edition to solve that issue, that would be nice. Best regards

Message 5 of 17

spumco
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Thank you very much.  I'll try out the post - air cuts, obviously.

 

Have you had any success with tapping on your Emco?  I don't believe it's capable of synchronized tapping with the Fanuc 21TB control - broken taps.  I even shot a high speed video and could see that the spindle keeps turning (decel) after the turret stops moving.  Same thing happens when backing out - the spindle starts turning until it gets an index signal and then the turret/tool starts moving back.

 

I saw a youtube video of a 325-II rigid tapping, but that was with the Siemens 840 control.  So I believe the lathe has the hardware, but the Fanuc version of WinNC is not capable of it and requires a tension-compression tap holder.

 

Another quick question... what version of WinNC do you have?  I've been struggling because the only programming manuals that Emco has published are poorly written and have numerous errors.  Some of the G/M codes don't work, or don't work as written in the manual.  I'm wondering if the WinNC version makes a difference.

 

In case you didn't know this already, the admin password for the WinConfig parameter software is usually "service".  Entering the admin mode permits access to quite a few settings in the PLC and other machine values.

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Message 6 of 17

fnavarrop
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Contributor

Hi, thanks by your answer.

 

For tapping:

 

can you show me the link to YT video? i'm looking for sinumerik 840D post process.

 

I try to do in radial mode but same results, broken taps, it seems some parameters needed to be adjusted in software Fusion, because I use FeatureCAM and if I choose floating type threading, works fine.

 

WinNC version:

 

I have 14.26 version installed, obtained directly from EMCO (W10 compatibility for simulate on my workstation) and machine has the original version that i comes installed as OEM. I know that about the manuals, is so confused to understand, but i think that we can get good results if working together. 

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Message 7 of 17

spumco
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YT link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g51h-PwkahQ

 

He's got a few other vids too. Not sure it's actually an 840, but it's certainly a Siemens and it's rigid tapping.

 

You might be able to get in touch and work out a Siemens Post with him.

 

I've got WinNC vers 14.14.  EmcoUSA wouldn't give me a later version, or much help with any of the PLC/MSD settings in WinConfig.  I wonder if there's a way you could get me a copy of your version for me to test.

Message 8 of 17

fnavarrop
Contributor
Contributor

Sure, I don't know if we have permitted upload exe files. but if you wish send me an e-mail to [email protected] so I can provide the last update that I receive from EMCO Austria. The postprocessor is for Type C G-code used on my lathe, I think yours is same. if use A or B type, can be easy modified to your requirements

Message 9 of 17

spumco
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Enthusiast

Email sent, thank you very much for the offer.

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Message 10 of 17

Anonymous
Not applicable

did you ever get a post processor to work?  I’m looking into getting a 325 ii and want to see if anyone has a successful post processor for it. It is the fanuc 21 series machine. 

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Message 11 of 17

spumco
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I bought a PP last year and mine works about 95%.  There are some tweaks I'd like done, but the PP author has not responded to emails since April so I'm assuming I've got what I've got.  Those tweaks aside, I'm running production jobs with no significant issues related to my post processor.

 

Some advice to prospective buyers:

 

The Fanuc programming manual from Emco is terrible.  It's missing information about quite a few functions and had multiple, multiple mis-translations from German/Austrian.  It also has multiple errors in the G-code descriptions, primarily for the live-tooling functions.  If you try to run any of the 'demo' programs that came with the original control software CD (and floppy!), it'll throw up or error out because the G-codes Emco included don't match the actual control.  It's really that bad.

 

Remember - this isn't actually a Fanuc control.  It's Emco's WinNC software that just looks like Fanuc.  That means all the parameters & machine settings are hidden inside a WinConfig program on the Windows 7 (or XP) PC and none of the standard Fanuc troubleshooting is valid.  Emco will not provide a service manual, much less a document describing any of the settings or adjustments.  And there's nobody left at Emco-USA who has worked on these machines and knows anythign about them.  I've been directed to retired employees by Emco when begging for help.

 

I believe (but have no first-hand knowledge), that the Siemens versions were much better supported and documented.  The programming manual is twice as long, and appear to have far fewer German-to-English mis-translations.

 

The Fanuc 21TB can't rigid tap with the main spindle, although I believe the Siemens can.  The problem is that while the Z-axis can be synchronized to the spindle, the 21TB control does not keep the tool synchronized once the Z-axis reaches programmed depth.  During decel, reverse, and acceleration the Z-axis doesn't move - breaking the tap.  If you're looking at a 21TB you'll need to get tap holders with axial length compensation (both extension and retract).

 

The live tooling can rigid tap, but you're limited to an ER16 collet for live tools as that's the only collet size available for axial and radial live tool holders.

 

VDI16 holders are rare and expensive.  Ebay has nothing used, and the 2 or 3 US distributors are very expensive.  There are a couple vendors in Germany (and also in Europe generally) who have holders at much more reasonable prices.  Also, VDI16 are more limited in available types - drill chucks, rotary broaches, etc. aren't made in VDI16.  The standard turning tool holders are not a problem.

 

The spindle nose is a rare size - and a straight spigot Euopean style.  The original 95mm Rohm chuck is no longer in their catalogue, although they do have 100mm chucks which may fit.  Rohm stuff is nice, but insanely expensive.

 

Chuck jaws are mounted with a fairly rare 1.5mm 90-degree serration.  None of the usual soft-jaw suppliers carry jaws, and the only source I've found is Rohm.  They also appear to have stepped hard jaws that fit but I was quoted $1200US for a set of three jaws.  Not three sets.

 

I'm very happy with the 325-II's performance, but suggest you not buy one unless it comes loaded with tooling and/or accessories.  And never buy one without seeing it run unless it's offered at scrap prices.  If the computer is dead, or any of the panel control buttons are dead or flakey, it's toast.  There are no more panels/buttons available from Emco, nor is the ACC (real-time computer in back).  And even if you happen to score an Ebay panel and want to switch from Fanuc to Siemens - Emco won't sell a license key anymore.

 

I don't know of any other lathe in this size/weight class as capable as a 325-II, but it's really a white elephant.  It holds insane tolerances, but once it breaks it'll become an aggravating hobby getting it to work again.

 

Sorry for the long post, but thought you (or anyone else) might appreciate a real-world opinion from a 325-II owner.

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Message 12 of 17

Anonymous
Not applicable

Thank you for your response. I was looking at one with the “fanuc 21” if you want to call it that controller. The seller dose not have it hooked up to power but dose come with some radial and axial live tooling. Also it comes with the 5c collet and some other misc tool holder. That being said I have not verified that the machine works but the seller has ensured that it dose.  The machine is fairly reasonably priced at under 8k and it has all the features that I would need for production. Any thoughts?  I with though it had rigid tapping on main spindle but that can be overcome with a floating holder. 

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Message 13 of 17

spumco
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I wouldn't touch it for half that without seeing it run regardless of any promises by the seller.

 

If you and the machine are in the US, the lathe will require a 400V transformer - Either a step-up from 240vac or step down from 480vac.  That's another expense, and is suspicious if the seller doesn't have one to go with the lathe.

 

Why can't they demonstrate it?  If they don't have power... how do they know it works?  If they saw it working at another location (i.e. used machine dealer), that doesn't mean it still works now.  Even if you get a "not-dead" warranty you don't want to get it home and have to return it and waste your time and possibly rigging expenses.

 

And without running it, you have no idea if that live tooling is still any good.  Keep in mind that rebuilds of live tool holders is around 50% of new cost (so $500 for axial and $1k for radial).

 

A not-proven-to-run 325-II is worth whatever you can part it out for.  I'd pay - maybe - 3 or 4k for it to have the spare parts.

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Message 14 of 17

Anonymous
Not applicable

I agree as to it being very skeptical for the price and there is a chance of it being doa but thankfully I will use a card for purchase and can dispute it. With that being said is there any other lathe that is as capable of machine with this many features in as close of the same size?

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Message 15 of 17

spumco
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Good idea on the credit card.

 

I'm not an expert on lathes - or other machinery for that matter.  Having said that, I haven't come across any other lathe with comparable features in the same size & weight range.

 

However, an alternative to consider is an Omniturn GT-75.  Those are similar footprint and slightly heavier, but still well under 2k lbs.  I have not operated one, but I understand that the control system is 'weird' (but reasonably capable).  A downside is no built-in live tooling, but they do have live tool attachments for the gang tool plate.

 

Upside is that all repair parts are still available (they're still sold new) and the machine is easily converted to a more modern or universal PC-based control (LinuxCNC, Acorn, Mach3/4, EdingCNC, ect.).  Another upside is that they have a standard taper spindle nose and can turn 6" stock.  And a gang-tool lathe is always going to be faster than a turret lathe all else being equal.

 

Tooling for any lathe isn't going to be cheap, so it's a wash there.  Nice thing about gang tool lathes is that if you have a production part (or family) that repeats, you can set up a single extended tool block with all tools pre-set and just install it for that part/family.  Store the offsets and no more touching off a whole turret or gange plate full of tools for each job.

 

I like my Emco, but if I had to do it again I'd seriously consider a used Omniturn as a very capable 5C collet machine.

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Message 16 of 17

fnavarrop
Contributor
Contributor

Hi, long time without writting here. Actually I'm away from machine because Covid-19. At this moment, like @spumco  said his post seems works ok with his lathe. I have too a new version for PP using live tools. I haven´t do any modifications to make the radial "drill/tap" works. (spumco PP works fine). my post works actually with axial polar interpolation and turning process.

 

I got a full functional FeatureCAM PP por Fanuc 21iT control. @spumco have you test the code already sent it to you last time by email?

 

You can contact me on the mail provided from previous messages. 

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Message 17 of 17

spumco
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Sorry, haven't had time to test it out - and I kind of lost track of which version (via email) was which. I'll check our email thread and get back to you that way.
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