Lathe Finish Profile

Lathe Finish Profile

fflesh
Enthusiast Enthusiast
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Message 1 of 29

Lathe Finish Profile

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Just wondering how I can control the wear in Profile Finishing if I can't select Wear. My options are In Computer and In Control. If I select In Control I get an error stating Failed to create a gouge free lead out for Control compensation type. That just seems wrong as this is precisely when I need to control the wear on the tool. I like to rough separate features depending on their tolerances and requirements and finish them separately as well. I prefer two finish passes with an Option Stop between so I can measure and adjust if needed. I'm not fussed about the tool wear during roughing but during a pair of finish passes it is absolutely critical I be able to dial in any wear or deflection issues at the control between those passes. 

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Replies (28)
Message 2 of 29

johnswetz1982
Advisor
Advisor

Try [In Control] but increase you lead-in/out and be sure it is larger than your tool nose radius. 

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Message 3 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Thanks for the reply.

I feel that's just a trick which would require I alter the tool LILO's every time I discover a size issue. Not being able to use wear control at the control panel on finish passes is real challenge. Having control at the machine is key as I don't want to have to alter posts once they are dialed and proven. I have discovered using Profile which contains both a rough and finish option to be posted back to back which allows me to select Wear or In Control. I just deselect the Roughing Passes option. Although I get a mixed bag of results I have managed to get a post I'm satisfied with. 

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Message 4 of 29

seth.madore
Community Manager
Community Manager

Wear Control was removed as an option several releases ago. 

In Control would be one method used to control size. Out of curiosity, what machine and control are you using? For my Doosan Lynx, I just use In Computer and adjust my Z and X wear offsets accordingly, perfect size control on everything thus far 🤔

The one area that does cause an issue is when I decide to move from a .015R to a .031R insert. But, I've only encountered that once, so a quick repost was all I needed.


Seth Madore
Customer Advocacy Manager - Manufacturing


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Message 5 of 29

akash.kamoolkar
Autodesk
Autodesk

@fflesh 

For in control compensation if you check the option "allow lead out to cut remaining stock" it should work.

 

Regards,

Akash Kamoolkar



Akash Kamoolkar
Software Development Manager
Message 6 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi, thanks for the reply. 

I understand your suggestion however, it will not work in a blind bore. If I have a tight tolerance on the bore dia as well as the depth I can't use this option as it will generate the same error...and rightly so haha I don't want to blow through the backside of these pcs. I do use your suggested option on max od profiles with success. 

 

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Message 7 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi Seth, 

Thanks for the reply. 

This is where I would expect to be able to adjust on the fly vs having to repost. Sometimes one insert isnt available so in a pinch I can always use a dif nose rad and adjust the wear vs actual offsets. My posts are my money and although I do a fair amount of edits to get rid of all the needless movements once I've posted a proven set of paths to one program, ideally I don't need to touch it. Unfortunately I don't make money reposting haha. Even quick ones 😉

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the terminology but, In Computer should mean at the PC so tool definition is key but as tools wear there is no compensation other than a potential long repost. In Control should give me the ability to adjust the tools X/Z offsets at the machine and Wear being essentially the same control but will post G41/42 along with any LILO rad's. I'm using a NGC Haas TL series machine using the generic Haas Turning post. So far I have found a functional work around by eliminating the roughing passes in Turning Profile but like me, it isn't perfect either. 

If I have a part with two OD's and one dia has a much tighter tolerance than the other, I would ideally program the 2 sets of finish passes separately from each other and separate from the roughing. Because the small dia goes to a shoulder, it presents a conflict between gouging and the G41/G42 and an error is generated. I've been poisoned by other software....

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Message 8 of 29

akash.kamoolkar
Autodesk
Autodesk

@fflesh 

Can you attach your file here with the boring toolpath? I'm curious to see the lead out that you are expecting and why it's not being created. If you don't want to use the lead out override parameter you can just change the lead out angle so it is created.

 

Regards,

Akash Kamoolkar



Akash Kamoolkar
Software Development Manager
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Message 9 of 29

seth.madore
Community Manager
Community Manager

You still have wear compensation that you can adjust at the control. Or, at least, I do on my Doosan. The Wear adjustment at the control has nothing to do with your compensation set at Fusion, it will adjust sizes and depths.

 

When I was first learning my lathe, I was constantly picking the brain of a friend and fellow machinist in Pennsylvania who only owned Haas Lathes. I too was surprised when he said "yep, I only program in Computer Control, adjust my Z and X wear values as needed". And waddya know, I did the same and I've not been let down yet.

Now, for the tool nose radius, that's where "In Control" would come into play and you would assign the proper radius and tool tip direction value properly


Seth Madore
Customer Advocacy Manager - Manufacturing


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Message 10 of 29

Anonymous
Not applicable

Here are few things to be aware of as you chose in control compensation vs in computer compensation.

They produce same result,......... in theory.

 

In computer compensation calculates all compensation and gives you visual control of clearances in confined areas.

In control compensation is calculated on the fly and applied as tool progresses thru the cut, often producing alarms and / or gouges.

 

Tool accumulates most wear on section of radius which does most work, you correct for size in diameter or depth using X and Z axis wear offset and not the radius value.

 

In lathe work programming using "tip tangent" in Fusion's tool definition, all strait X and Z axis cuts are on programmed path and do not need compensation.

Only tool paths requiring compensation are taper and arc cuts, if you are cutting spherical balls or ellipses all day long, you are using all points along the tool's tip radius and tip wear would be evenly accumulated from end to end of used section of tip radius, in that case you could use radius value in tool offset page to correct for size. Using full radius grooving tool or round insert would be good example.

That correction would likely only give you another few parts before warn and flattened cutting edge produces heat, friction and ugly finish, requiring tool change. 

 

In Fanuc's  G71 and G72 canned cycles, in control compensation is canceled due to retract moves at each pass being in contradiction with function of cutter compensation direction rules, compensation is only applied if G70 follows, that results in excess stock for finish pass in all tapers and arcs along the path.

In Fusion, you now have ability to produce in computer cutter compensation within  G71 and G72 canned cycles.

 

Clear and obvious advantage is in using "in computer" compensation along with simulation in Fusion and back plotting of resulting G code to predetermine all outcomes as opposed to reacting to alarms and gouges produced by use of "in control" compensation.

In some cases parts were scrapped using good programs by people not filling correct tip and radius values in tool offset page during setup.

 

Message 11 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

 I get the premise and practice behind in control, wear and in computer. I'm used  to MasterCAM and BobCAD actually. 

In this case I need it specifically for tapers both inny and outty with lead in/ out rads. I dont' want to finish the entire inner profile in one continuous pass as there are dif tolerances on the varied diameters. I want the control to finish each straight or tapered feature separately without giving me an error at the computer. Plus dialing the tool in on a straight diameter before running the taper allows me to measure if the tool is cutting on size otherwise how do you measure a taper in the machine?  I have been using tip tangent since I started as well. If tip tangent is selected as well as Cutting Edge vs Contact point, how can Wear not be an option or even using In Control? If I cant' use it with any of the combos I've tried why have it as an option in Finish Profile? You removed Wear from the finish and say In Control is rarely needed.

So although it may be "clear and obvious" to you, it's clear and obvious to me I need that control and have had it in the past but give it up with this software. Sorry to sound like an old jaded machinist but......

 

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Message 12 of 29

Anonymous
Not applicable

Well. the fact is  that in computer compensation allows you to specifically construct tool path to avoid gouges and crashes in confined spaces so you have more control and outcome is decided before tool touches stock.

 

As you noted, making a strait cut to see that tool is on proper diameter is something I do daily, I can measure that and I can measure depth from face, from there any arc and taper is going to be accurate providing tool radius is not deformed or chipped, has uniform amount of stock across entire path and type of material doesn't wear out tip before tool reaches end of the cut.

You can achieve same thing by use of in control compensation with potential setbacks.

 

One area where you seem to have miss conception is wear offset as related to radius of insert.

For instance, using end mill and programming its center point, then using diameter or radius in machine control is not the same as using radius tip on lathe.

When end mill wears out  by .001, you can measure it and correct for it in wear offset or by adjusting diameter or radius value.

You cannot measure insert radius while it is mounted in tool, therefore you don't know by how much to adjust wear offset or radius value.

In 99% of lathe work I program "imaginary tool nose", the point where two lines intersect each other at 90 degree as insert touches each line, one representing X axis and one representing Z axis.

This is in sink with how tools are touched off on probe or by cut and measure method.

On rare occasion, I program tip or center point of round insert, for reasons like associating print dimension with tool position and strait plunge.

 

Now, on mill you are compensating for tool radius, on lathe you are compensating for difference between that imaginary programmed point and all points along insert tip radius.

Every possible taper angle between 0 and 90 degree has different compensation value for given size of insert radius and it is calculated in computer (or at the machine if you use in control compensation).

 

You can find these values in increment of one degree in the back of the Bible (Machinery's handbook), for example, 45 degree compensation for 1/64" radius is .0092, if I am cutting .1 chamfer on outside edge and using direct compensation, chamfer value in Z axis is .1092, and .2184 X axis, diameter programming.

 

Same chamfer is programmed as .1 in Z value and .2 in X value with .0156 entered in radius field of machine offset page and tool being used along with correct tip number for orientation, tip # 3 in case of turning tool.

 

I started in days of DOS and trigonometry on scratch paper by the machine, so I am fully capable of programming a job using "in my head" compensation we now call "in computer", the difference is that I am now more efficient and more accurate.

That was all in relation to tapers, for any arcs I use IJK since beginning, IJK values are signed incremental distances from center of the arc being cut to center of the tool radius when tool is at start point of an arc.

You subtract tool radius from programmed arc move for concave arc and you add it to arc value for convex arc, that simple.

 

There is a miss conception of "easier method" being attributed to in control compensation, in part because you don't have to calculate it and in part because you can program dimensions strait from print.

This leaves it for machine and on the fly calculations to figure out what you did not and when there is a problem, you have a gouge on part or interrupted finish pass which you have to recover, fix the problem and repeat without showing tool mark or loosing size.

 

As I sad, you can accomplish same result using either method as they are essentially the same concept, the difference is in being in control ahead of the game or reacting to event you cannot always recover from without damage.

One commonly observed problem with in control compensation is that in cutting partial arcs, machine tends to dive as deep or as high as it wants with no regard to surrounding features and clearances.

Small shift in direction of cut can easily results in goudge and both are easy to overlook while dry running program and  before it is too late.

For years, I used computers with progressively more sophisticated software, in early 1990 I even produced peace of software compiled in Microsoft Basic that helped me calculate tool paths for C axis work, actual G code produced based on tool diameter, stock diameter and measurements across flats of hexagon, square or two flats, done in polar mode as very common features on mill-turn,..... even had cutter compensation included in G code.

I had HP LX-95 handheld computer running DOS 3, screen size was 2" x 4" if I recall correctly and I dished out close to $500 for it, it was "must have" gadget for any wannabe computer geek. 

So, I'll take computers any day, over old, in control compensation method, to me that's working harder and I don't like to work harder then I have to and come up with same result or even fall short.

 

Why not take advantage of detailed graphics, controlled tool paths, simulation, backplotting?, polish every move with accuracy and visual confirmation before tool makes a single chip.

 

Any argument you can think of in favor of in control compensation method flies right by me as it has no merit in my book at this day and age but that should not stop you from believing in it ...... and working harder.

 

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Message 13 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Thanks for the long response. I disagree. I want WEAR to adjust WEAR in process.

The fKn roughing pass just bored too deep on a set up part and I left an allowance of .01" but it bores to depth. Why? Don't tell me it's because I selected the face of the bore bottom as the back of the part because I selected a Z allowance but it won't leave one. Then in Finishing it bores to fKn deep!! .006" too deep! Some random arbitrary value that I don't get to adjust for. This software is SH@t for lathe. I will spend the 5G on BobCAD.

Thanks and sorry to express my frustration. I'm trying to run a  business and fiddle fking with this garbage isn't making me money. Infact it just cost me. 

 

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Message 14 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Second repsonse here. I have use backplotting, simulation etc. This isnt' my first time programming lathes. This software is just too finicky and has huge potential for mistakes. 

 

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Message 15 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I don't know how to attach a file in here. 

I'm done with the software. I can't keep wasting time trying to program something for hours which takes 5 mins in MasterCAM. 

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Message 16 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I just wan to have the nose rad compensated for as I program and adjust as needed at the control. If I don't have the option while programming, I get over or under cut chamfs, rads, tapers etc. I just bored too deep although I left a heathy Z allowance. The program went right to edpth during roughing then for jokes I wanted to see what the finish pass was and it went .006" too deep. 

I have no time for fiddling with something when I can purchase what works. 

 

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Message 17 of 29

fflesh
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Firstly, my apologies for letting my frustrations out in a forum. 

Second thanks for you indulgence in trying to explain things from your POV. 

After a numerous attempts and as many variants as I could combine I managed to get something I'm satisfied with in terms of separating tool paths to measure and adjust between roughing and my preferred 2 finish passes, as well as preventing the tool from blowing through bore walls. It seems Rest Machining is key to prevent this in my case. Regardless of LILO angle, length etc, using sketched geo, adjusting the Back geo using different tip position, although I know to use tip tangent on general turning applications, I still couldn't get a tool path to not plow into the back wall in this bore. Given the graphics, I couldn't see the tool path ripping into the back wall and perhaps took for granted that because the roughing was graphically correct, I may have assumed the finish pass' were following the same geo. I did try sketching in a simple 90 to follow the bore dia and up the back wall but I got an error saying the lines weren't close enough to join, yet they were constrained in the sketch. That was a bit frustrating and I'm sure to pull a few hairs out fumbling with that in the short term. I'm used to the software allowing me to use section geo vs surfaces and faces which, along with sketched in geo, allowed me a fair bit of control. I'm sure it's just a matter of "figuring" it out as I go. My grasp of nose geo and theoretical lines is quite solid. I learned to program my hand as well but I may be used to a much older software and how to manipulate that. For now I will carry on trying to make good parts taking out only the proper chips haha. Thanks again to you and all who have attempted breaking through my crusty shell. 

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Message 18 of 29

Anonymous
Not applicable

Crossing the bridge with difference of opinion is best addressed with practical example, if you upload your Fusion file or its equivalent in duplicating concept I'd be glad to take a stub at it.

Message 19 of 29

seth.madore
Community Manager
Community Manager

To share a file here; Right click on the file in the Data Panel and select the "Share Public Link" and paste it here. Make sure it's set to "Allow Items to be downloaded"

2020-07-10_09h09_48.png

 

All the frustrations you're venting on should be preventable in the software. I'm sorry to hear your frustrations with this.

 

 

 


Seth Madore
Customer Advocacy Manager - Manufacturing


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Message 20 of 29

Anonymous
Not applicable

@fflesh wrote:

Thanks for the long response. I disagree. I want WEAR to adjust WEAR in process.

The fKn roughing pass just bored too deep on a set up part and I left an allowance of .01" but it bores to depth. Why? Don't tell me it's because I selected the face of the bore bottom as the back of the part because I selected a Z allowance but it won't leave one. Then in Finishing it bores to fKn deep!! .006" too deep! Some random arbitrary value that I don't get to adjust for. This software is SH@t for lathe. I will spend the 5G on BobCAD.

Thanks and sorry to express my frustration. I'm trying to run a  business and fiddle fking with this garbage isn't making me money. Infact it just cost me. 

 


Everything I talk about was aimed at making sure we are on same page in regards to cutter compensation, tool wear,  how it works and how we control outcome of uneven tool wear in turning.

Wear compensation has no place in turning for all the reasons I described in depth, majority of tool wear is manifested in form of flat spot on tip of the insert, result of overwhelming use of X and Z axis strait cuts vs wear accumulated on radius as a result of cutting chamfers, tapers and arcs.

 

It is these reasons that prevail when it comes to deciding when to index insert, therefore prolonging tool life for another few parts by compensating for radius wear has no practical impact,........... unless all you are doing is cutting spherical balls all day long, in which case your tool wear would be all along portion of used section of radius on round insert.

In control compensation is known to have few issues, biggest negative being that in using it, you give machine chance to scrap your part as opposed to using in computer compensation and managing all events before tool touches part.

I hope you get what you pay for because Fusion is a pretty good deal if you fill in few blanks with clever use of functional parts of it.

We all have our convictions and likewise we benefit or suffer setbacks from sticking to them, I newer aim to convert people to my religion but facts are what they are and I do like to compare few notes with others, put it to test and let the chips fall where they may.