User Parameters vs Model Parameters

[La-Z-Bri]

What's the difference between user parameters and model parameters?

[etfrench · Accepted solution]

Model parameters are derived from the model.  User parameters are created by the user. User parameters can refer to model parameters and model parameters can refer to user parameters.

[mwesse]

What about when you insert/derive etc?

Where can I actually find the detailed definition of parameter scoping?

And what is the logical implications/scoping of user vs model...if you create named parameters ie direct in field inputs, then why are they classed as model parameters?

They are still user defined names? Why would they logically not fall under user category?

[davebYYPCU]

Parameters on the fly do not receive “created by user status”

It’s an implementation thing.  

Might help….

[etfrench]

Inserted files don't expose any parameters.  Insert Derive exposes parameters previously made 'Favorites'.  Parameters defined in entry fields are given a sequential name which may be changed be a user.  This doesn't change them to user parameters.

I have no answer for the rest of your questions.

[mwesse]

@etfrench @davebYYPCU 
Thanks for the answers...from a software design point of view, it seems a little bottom up vs top down ie usually schema is informed by the actual process rather than the code libs available

What I mean is, concept design phasing into output, is like a tree; main branch schema defined by user params. Params on the fly are because of design/iteration and putting leaves on the trees, the data is ideally a common foundation. 

Coming from many other progs, its not a show stopper but just clunky jumping back and forth when you shouldnt need to...even just reassigning would be good...Im only on small projects and already getting verbose

Then we could have a simple flow chart covering all that and self answering for users...thats why I think it may seem overwhelming to new comers. I have been using parametrics in eg Archicad which has a comprehensive flow and directives so maybe Im expecting too much, but that was 30 years ago. 

Would also be very helpful to

1. have tagging for variables so you can use fast conditional filtering and across hierarchy etc

2. Flow chart in help manual as mentioned and showing entry points of creation

3. Flow chart highlighting interaction during assemblies and import/scoping

Cheers

[davebYYPCU]

As far as I can tell, number 1 is provided, 

selecting a user parameter is as simple as typing he first letter of a user parameter, and selection from the filter list.

The model itself with the Timeline is enough to satisfy me for points 2 and 3.

[mwesse]

Sure

Im probably just spoilt! Hmm its more than that eg in large parametric projects...it seems to get messy very quickly so maybe I need to see the amount of data a user eg yourself would normally managed.

I havent even started to parametize this as different size builds use different extrusions etc which of course affects a lot of stuff...not saying its gigantic...just saying that so far it feels pretty clunky to use hence my post as that basic info doesnt seem very visible

Could I also ask

eg in previous experience, I would tie master parameters to a skeleton which had interactive hotspots eg as in a parametric version of the Voron 2.4 3d printer (well remixed too).

My idea was to create a box with size eg Build_X, Build_Y and Build_Z

I would like to interactively size the box in any dimension and have it snap to 50mm increments and then all dependencies would update based on this

I can easily do that in other packages as mentioned but how would one do that in 360 or should I start another post I guess?

RE: Points
1 I think we are on different planets...tags group single level entities
ie Normal terse practice is 
eg 
Bed_Plate_Thickness is naming using stems of course

but tags apply search by ownership
eg 
Bed also belongs to 'electronics' (for heater) and also belongs to magnetics
so in the browser you can simply click a tag for alternate grouping and show stuff that belongs across groups. Anyway maybe they simply dont use tagging in autodesk products...but best practice I have seen is browsing in Native Instruments...pretty neat in large projects anyway

So Im not just talking parameters but even the model browser could be super fast using those filtering widgets

2 and 3...Im not talking so much about geometries...sorry if thats not clear. I mean, totally parameters eg when insert, I would want inheritance of all child parameters, that way, when pasting component as new, I can revector the parameter to another user parameter relative to the current project.

In other words, lets say I want to import an extrusion. Its default length is 'Ext"Len'. Now I use it as source template object and everytime I paste as new component, I want to assign it new user params. 

If I have a skeleton providing the interactive values, how do I pipe that back into each instance of the extrusion instance?
Now If I need to change the extrusion size from eg 3030 to 2020, I can just change the link to the template object and have the whole file update...or am I missing something?

[davebYYPCU]

I am Ok with build volume, and consistent profiles.  

To change profiles, will bring into play Configurations.  This is new and I have not needed that in my work.

So my basic advice is template model with induvial child models with the appropriate profiles dedicated to each child.

Hardware is the same, so would most likely be a config Project.

Might help...

[mwesse]

Cheers

Yeah build sizes vary between 250mm3 and 800x800x1200 so extrustions go up to 4040 on the big one...
Ive been learning python for the api so I would want to also manage batch output and configs not 1 by 1 projects which quickly turns into a nightmare and also need to swap out build comps etc to generate BOMs etc
Hardware changes on models too. X gantry goe to CF (30x60mm) on sizes > 500m x

So how can you set extrude lengths on a template object without it becoming a static parameter. I also tried eg joint to faces etc but not really behaving as I thought it might

Might be worth going back to archicad for this I think...just what you get use to I guess

Cheers

Prob doesnt make sense in 360 terms but if this helps (ie what you do in GDL)

You identify eg frame members, in this case there is only a Frame_Major and a Frame_Minor element. These names are just addresses for the name of the extrusion profiles.
1. You create the required profiles with names
2. You populate the entity names with the choice in this configuration ie 3030 = Frame_Major and 2020 = Frame Minor
3. Anwhere in the project where a frame element is called it will reference the entity (Frame_Major) and in this size model the assignment of the profile would happen based on the size
IF Frame_X >=500 AND Frame_y >= 500 blah blah The Frame_Major = '3030')
Well you get the idea

Im gathering it cant be done in F360 like that...or are configurations what I should look for?

[g-andresen]

Hi,

---

@mwesse wrote:

...or are configurations what I should look for?

---

That's exactly what @davebYYPCU  recommended!

günther

[mwesse]

Sorry...late here...zzz...I mean 
"or are configurations (purely) what I should look for?"

LEAD has a good youtube  on config, that I just watched, but yeah...they go a little way there but seems more like a look up table with a UI in that vid (...seems a lot like revit tbh ie their parametric libs. )...

No use to me as I only have a personal license unfortunately and had the most ridiculous time (trying) to get an edu license despite having a login to TAFE and certificate of enrollment that everyone else accepted; 3 months later and still wasnt sorted along with the broken web page for EDU oustide of the U.S, I just gave up. 

I also asked a lot of those previous questions as i used inventor for a while and seemed to be a lot easier to understand for parameter import etc

I was looking to help out in the voron community re: F360 files but there is way too much work/clunky for this side of things (well the way I was hoping to do it anyway)  so Ill just go back to what I know, should take a couple of hours to start from scratch and finish it tomorrow

Thanks

Have been quite enjoying the journey so far but...not so much the parameter section...and cant see myself paying for F360 for non paid work atm.

Cheers

[davebYYPCU]

I have a better idea of your original question now, 

With Fusion basic, you know / knew you can’t even do configurations.  
Look up tables is a good description.

I don’t know if the Inventor Frame Generator would be helpful.

I think you will end up with Template file and a library of components to assemble into it.

Parametric changes to build volume with same components is about as far as Fusion will take you.

Might help….

[mwesse]

Thanks

Yeah I would have to relink as best practice for frame gen/extrusion change...although you cant do that programatically without python (and I havent even looked at the API there as yet).

Didnt know about configs but I thought there would be something similar...all good

Although you can do more in revit libraries with code, out of the box its very similar as LUT

Is there a best practice resource for the templates/assemblage (all in one spot)? I have looked at Lars etc but seems something missing as to easy use of component/new (ie why, if new instance do you need to capture position)

I did some experimenting and seems you can actually use the template with the generic name eg Ext_Len and then just swap it out on placement, this is about as close as I can see to what Im use to

Appreciate the help