Sheet Metal Issues and Bugs

[CLmoss]

I am starting a new thread that concerns possible Bugs or Issues with Fusion Sheet Metal that we find, or think we find, as we use it.  

We were going out of scope on this other thread below. 

Auto 2D Drawing dimensioning function

[jeff_strater]

@CLmoss, for us to diagnose this, you will have to invite one of us into your project, temporarily.  The nature of out-of-dateness cannot be exported, so we'd have to take a look at the design in its current state.  If you are willing to do that, then please invite me as [email protected] to your project, tell me which design to look at, and I will take a look.

thanks,

Jeff

[CLmoss]

Not a chance Jeff.   You are talking to a programmer.   They don't make personalized problems like this.  I can send you the single component in the screen captures I posted, offline.  Send me a gmail email.  I will respond.  You did good with the log files I sent you.  Move works great now.  Thanks!  Maybe what you need is another set of log files and the part in the screen capture.  Send me an email or I can use the Ahreum Ryu's email that finally made it through last time.  You will have to go find the files though.   If you want you could open a gmail account and send me an email from that.  The emails at autodesk.com suck.  They are attachment size limited.  Gmail will work.  You can use Ahreum Ryu's gmail account like last time when I couldn't get through to Kate.   You name it.  In the meantime you have a broken CAD program that was fixed once, by you, and now as of 2 days ago is broken again.  

Jim 

[CLmoss]

You need to read my last 4 posts before we can continue.  You will see in the jpg attachments that a single component file is being warned that it has 5 out of date components.  One component having 5 components out of date.  It is ridiculous. The program is broken... as of the last 3 days.   Take a look at the log files again.  That worked last time.  I can send those to a gmail account.  

[jeff_strater]

I have read all of your posts.  I understand what you are describing.  And, it is completely your choice not to share your design, I understand why you might not want to do that.  And yes, go ahead and send in the log files.  However, with these kinds of out-of-date issues, it is almost always a data-specific problem, and we can't really do much without seeing the design, in the state it is in.  The problem is in the network of inter-related designs.  Design A references Design B, and there is a new version of B.  Update Design A, and B is still marked out of date.  We need both A and B, with all their versions and design history to try to figure out why B is still marked out of date.  An exported design does not have that version history attached to it, so it doesn't help.

Alternatively, if you can describe a set of steps to create the problem from scratch, that could be another way to attack the problem.  I have tested some simple scenarios here, and they all work as expected.  So, my suspicion is that there is something unique in your design that is not in the simple cases I've tried.

Any help would be appreciated.

[CLmoss]

Where do I send the log file?  It cannot be a autodesk site.  Do you have a gmail site?  Fusion360DiagnosticLogs.zip is 4.6 megs

Jim

I just tried to send you the file and got this back:

Reason: There was an error while attempting to deliver your message with [Subject: "JIM MOSS: Fusion360DiagnosticLogs.zip"] to [email protected]. MTA p3plsmtpa07-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net received this response from the destination host IP - 148.163.148.240 -  550 , 550 5.7.0 Message Size Violation

maybe I can send you a link to the file from one of my websites. 

Jim 

[CLmoss]

I just sent you an email with the subject line:  

Fusion360DiagnosticLogs.zip link for download

Click on that link to download the log file from one of my websites. 

I sent it to [email protected] 

Try to figure out why, with a single component file, that there is an error saying that I have 5 components in this file that are out of date. 

Let me know when you download the file.  I will remove it from the site. 

Jim 

[jeff_strater]

I received the email with the link to the logs, and have downloaded them.  You may remove them from your site.  Thank you.

Jeff

[CLmoss]

Paul, 

how would you define, "STEP files are great, but they cannot maintain bend information - think of STEP files as dumb solids."

There is a lesson to be learned here, Paul.  SolidWorks was able to unfold my STEP files.  The same ones that Fusion could not.

How do you think they could have done that?  After all, you said that STEP files cannot maintain bend information.  

Maybe, FUSION should spend a little time figuring out why they did and could.

Then maybe code tests can added to FUSION which will allow it to better understand STEP files and how to do the same as SoldWorks. 

Maybe SolidWorks looks for trends in the file.  Then they make assumptions based on what the see in the STEP file itself. 

Sometimes the lack of information, is itself information. 

From this information they might decide to run tests.

The results of these momentary tests may tell them that this STEP file IS A Sheet Metal file. 

It is  like a Sherlock Holmes mystery.  The FUSION people need to do some reverse engineering.  Figure it out.

Because anyway you cut it, SolidWorks performed where Fusion did not.  

Jim 

[paul.clauss]

@CLmoss

As I have mentioned - the tools necessary to unfold imported files in Fusion (including STEP files) are not yet available Fusion, but are in the roadmap. Fusion will include similar tools to the ones that allowed you to work with this file in Solidworks, but they are not yet included. At this point, Solidworks includes a tool that can apply bend information to an existing "dumb solid" file based on inputs - the bend information is not stored in the STEP file, but tools in Solidworks can be used to apply sheet metal rules to an existing solid. While these tools are not yet present in Fusion, they are coming, as we have discussed in this thread. 

The Solidworks tool is called "Convert to Sheet Metal" - which does exactly that. It converts a "dumb" solid (STEP or IGES, with no sheet metal bend information) to a Solidworks sheet metal component and applies sheet metal rules and bends to it. 

At the bottom of this link (which I have sent before in this thread), please note workflows #2 and #3:

Workflow 2: Reuse of other CAD SM models.  This new workflow will allow you to open another sheet metal model made from a different CAD package, change the rule and flatten.

Workflow 3: Convert to sheet metal.  Using this workflow you can start with a shape that represents the sheet metal design as a volume.  You will then be able to select faces connecting the flanges to convert the shape to a sheet metal model.

We are discussing tools that are being actively developed for Fusion but simply have not been released yet. These tools will allow you to apply sheet metal bends to existing models, including STEP files. We apologize that these options are not yet available, but they will be added to Fusion 360 in a future update.

[CLmoss]

You are not focused on my point.  My point is, the STEP files are not as dumb as you think, obviously.  My point is that there is bend information in the STEP files even if it is not listed as such in the file standards.  I am thinking of things such as the curves at bends.  You can machine the same, but my test results proved that SolidWorks could not unfold STEP files made from Solid Object files, but could unfold STEP files that were created from Sheet Metal files.  Maybe there is something that is present in the Sheet Metal derived STEP that is not in the Solid Metal derived STEP file.  Has anyone here ever seen the spec definition for STEP files?  

My point is does anyone actually know what is in a STEP file based on the STEP file standard? 

Jim 

[HughesTooling]

No there is no bend information in a STP file a STP file is totally dumb, it does not know what metal is let alone what a sheetmetal part is. The attached stp file was created in Rhino, a totally dumb modeler it just creates surfaces, no materials no bend info. With a bit of lateral thinking and common sense I can get it unfolded in Fusion the same way Solidworks does it with dumb imports!

Here you can see the dumb import highlighted and the flat pattern.

Mark

[Phil.E]

@HughesTooling

Thanks for the example.

I think what is missing from this discussion is this fact: some CAD programs can detect sheet thickness and bend radius and then apply SM logic to it, thus converting a dumb solid to an SM part. The key is that the dumb solid must conform to SM rules that the converting app can use. The conversion is probably entirely destructive, meaning the original body is replaced entirely with a body that conforms to the SM rules in the converting app. Inventor can also do this, and it's just a matter of time before Fusion can, as you can see by the road map Paul presented.

But just to be clear, STEP does not contain SM information other than a body that is close enough in shape to fit the SM rules to be converted into. You cannot, for instance, convert a screw to SM.

Thanks for the great conversation!

[jeff_strater]

We took a look at your log files.  So far, we have not found enough information in these log files to determine the cause of your problem.  The one thing that we did notice, however, is that the version of Fusion you are running is quite old.  Your version is 2.0.3133, and the current version is 2.0.3620.  The version that you have is from late June, and Fusion has updated several times since then.  I don't know that this is the source of your out of date problem, but it would be worth doing a clean uninstall/reinstall, by following the directions here:  How-to-do-an-automatic-Clean-Uninstall-for-Autodesk-Fusion-360.

If that doesn't help, then we may have to be able to see the data to dig in further, unfortunately, though we will keep investigating the log files.

Jeff

[jeff_strater]

Just out of curiosity, did you see this warning dialog when you tried to update?

This scenario can be one way in which you can get into a situation where components are marked out of date, but will not update.  But, you should see this dialog in those cases.

[CLmoss]

Jeff, it has to have updated. There was the pre Sheet Metal version, then the post Sheet Metal version.   Is there a way to trigger an update without deleting this install?  I have seen it say, update version before.  What if I can't get back in?  I am in the middle of this project. 

Jim

[CLmoss]

No.  The warning I saw was is captured in the jpg files I uploaded on this thread. 

Jim

[daniel_lyall]

Do the update when you are finished, 

[CLmoss]

Good Idea...

The thing is, I see it when there is an update.  

Jeff might be right, but I can't risk it right now.  

Jim

[CLmoss]

Phil,

that is my point exactly.  They are finding trends in the file that match those of sheet metal and when someone gives the command to unfold, it does it.  Sometimes dumb is not so dumb when viewed by a smart programmer.  If you think about it, this is just another form of pattern recognition.  

Thanks for your input on this.  

Jim

[jeff_strater]

I went back and reviewed the images from your post, and this dialog is indeed there.  So, now I understand what you are seeing, I believe.  Watch/listen to the attached screencast for an explanation of why these components are out of date.  The basic idea is that you have some inserted components that have been "Removed" from your design.  If those components are editing and have new versions, they report as out of date.  However, because they have been Removed, they are not currently part of the design, and so cannot be updated:

I agree the experience here could be better.  But, this is a current expected behavior of Fusion.

I no longer think it has anything to do with the fact that your software is out of date, although it is a good idea to update when you can.  I agree with @daniel_lyall that you can postpone this until your current project is finished.

Screencast: