My conclusions after 1 year of Fusion and resulting decisions ...

[rumpelstielz]

hey all, my 1st term is coming to and end in a couple of days and this together with the cloud debacle of last week prompted me to do a review of my work with Fusion in comparison of 3 years of working with Rhino and Rhinocam before. Much of what i'm thinking has already been mentioned by other users in this forum but because i've had a good contact with some people of the Fusion team i thought it only fair to let them know my thought process and resulting decision in the hope that maybe it will be food for thought for Autodesk.

Whereas i was planning and trying to migrate my entire production workflow to Fusion I have to admit that last weeks events have served as a wake up call to me and to summarize  I have decided that I will not pursue Fusion as a main CAD/CAM workflow any longer. I will probably continue to use it from time to time to see how it's evolving but I am going to upgrade my Rhino and Rhinocam licenses instead (maybe switch to Madcam since i'm not a fan of the Rhinocam licensing model and have had a couple of issues). This will cost me less than the revenue i lost due to last weeks problems. In the long run as my business evolves I will eventually move to Solidworks.

The reasons for this are manyfold, tired of the bugs, crashes, tired of the bad file management paradigm, tired of not being able to manage my tool libraries more usefully, tired of unnecessary repetitive task (like having to switch off toolpath dispaly, enable stock display and chosse materials several dozens of times a day), tired of the abysmal performance of the simulation, tired of being a beta tester, tired of the ultra slow forums and A360 portal,.... all this eating just up A LOT of my production time on a daily basis.

but there is really one main reason for me abandoning the idea of using Fusion as my main production tool, and that reason is:

the cloud

i personally find not a single feature of the cloud system of Fusion useful, really not a single one, for me they all are either irrelevant or annoying, but that might just be due to my workflow. even if last weeks outage on the Autodesk side never happen again, it can also happen that on my side i have no internet access (happened a couple of times this year, sometimes for several days) and i cannot affor not to be able to work because of this. But the lack of access is only a side issue, the two main reasons here are:

1. i want to have full and exclusive control of my production files, at any and all times
2. Autodesk has no business of having my production and design files in the first place

I am coming out of a 3 year long R&D and proof of concept phase for my products moving into manufacturing for profit and it is simply out of the question that these proprietary files are stored on Autodesk servers unless i specifically request this (although i cannot think of any reason why i would want to do this in the future). I don't want them to be stored anywhere but here in my local secured environment !!! This for my own products but i've also talked to my clients (architects, inventors, makers, designers) and most of them don't feel comfortable handing over proprietary files and blueprints for sometimes patented products to me which will end up in the Autodesk cloud where i don't have full control over access and security.

If Fusion was a 'normal' software and the cloud only an option i could enable on a granular project or file level basis and not jump through hoops to protect my files from an outage i might stick with fusion but I see no evidence in the posts and roadmaps from the Autodesk team to go into this direction.

I will miss the friendly people here in the forum and all the great advice, i've learned a lot from you guys in the past year and really want to thank you all, especially Mark from Hugues who has pulled me out of a pickle more than once. I'll also miss the friendly and reactive Autodesk staff and of course there are a couple of features in Fusion which i'm sure i'll miss.

[rumpelstielz]

hey all, my 1st term is coming to and end in a couple of days and this together with the cloud debacle of last week prompted me to do a review of my work with Fusion in comparison of 3 years of working with Rhino and Rhinocam before. Much of what i'm thinking has already been mentioned by other users in this forum but because i've had a good contact with some people of the Fusion team i thought it only fair to let them know my thought process and resulting decision in the hope that maybe it will be food for thought for Autodesk.

Whereas i was planning and trying to migrate my entire production workflow to Fusion I have to admit that last weeks events have served as a wake up call to me and to summarize  I have decided that I will not pursue Fusion as a main CAD/CAM workflow any longer. I will probably continue to use it from time to time to see how it's evolving but I am going to upgrade my Rhino and Rhinocam licenses instead (maybe switch to Madcam since i'm not a fan of the Rhinocam licensing model and have had a couple of issues). This will cost me less than the revenue i lost due to last weeks problems. In the long run as my business evolves I will eventually move to Solidworks.

The reasons for this are manyfold, tired of the bugs, crashes, tired of the bad file management paradigm, tired of not being able to manage my tool libraries more usefully, tired of unnecessary repetitive task (like having to switch off toolpath dispaly, enable stock display and chosse materials several dozens of times a day), tired of the abysmal performance of the simulation, tired of being a beta tester, tired of the ultra slow forums and A360 portal,.... all this eating just up A LOT of my production time on a daily basis.

but there is really one main reason for me abandoning the idea of using Fusion as my main production tool, and that reason is:

the cloud

i personally find not a single feature of the cloud system of Fusion useful, really not a single one, for me they all are either irrelevant or annoying, but that might just be due to my workflow. even if last weeks outage on the Autodesk side never happen again, it can also happen that on my side i have no internet access (happened a couple of times this year, sometimes for several days) and i cannot affor not to be able to work because of this. But the lack of access is only a side issue, the two main reasons here are:

1. i want to have full and exclusive control of my production files, at any and all times
2. Autodesk has no business of having my production and design files in the first place

I am coming out of a 3 year long R&D and proof of concept phase for my products moving into manufacturing for profit and it is simply out of the question that these proprietary files are stored on Autodesk servers unless i specifically request this (although i cannot think of any reason why i would want to do this in the future). I don't want them to be stored anywhere but here in my local secured environment !!! This for my own products but i've also talked to my clients (architects, inventors, makers, designers) and most of them don't feel comfortable handing over proprietary files and blueprints for sometimes patented products to me which will end up in the Autodesk cloud where i don't have full control over access and security.

If Fusion was a 'normal' software and the cloud only an option i could enable on a granular project or file level basis and not jump through hoops to protect my files from an outage i might stick with fusion but I see no evidence in the posts and roadmaps from the Autodesk team to go into this direction.

I will miss the friendly people here in the forum and all the great advice, i've learned a lot from you guys in the past year and really want to thank you all, especially Mark from Hugues who has pulled me out of a pickle more than once. I'll also miss the friendly and reactive Autodesk staff and of course there are a couple of features in Fusion which i'm sure i'll miss.

[mcramblet]

I, too, have been using Fusion 360 for one year, and I also came from Rhino. My conclusion, for the CAD work that I do, is the exact opposite. I'd have a very hard time going back to modeling with Rhino. I still use Rhino for a few things, like setting up scenes for rendering, but for the actual modeling of parts, I find Fusion far better than Rhino. Obviously, everyone has different needs and preferences, and I'm not trying to mitigate your choice. Since we have some similarities, I wanted to provide some balance with my perspective for the Fusion team and forum.

In my experience over the past year of using Fusion, I have to say that I didn't know what I was missing with Rhino. The four biggest game changers for me are:

1- Parametric modeling. This has saved me so much time. Just this week, from a base file with a couple of sketches, I was able to generate a family of thermoformed containers, all different sizes. This same project in Rhino would have required so much more work.

2- A robust modeling kernel. The kernel used in Rhino leaves a lot to be desired. I can't say how many times I'd have to resort to jumping through all sorts of hoops to create fillets manually, because the Rhino engine just could do it. Shelling is the same thing, always gave me fits. Fusion is so much more robust.

3- The Cloud. I actually like the fact that I know I have some built in redundancy. I create local backups of all of my files, but I like the fact that I also have them in an off-site location. Being able to send someone a link that they can follow and interact with the model has also been a great help, many have commented on how "cool" that is, when they are used to a static image or an e-drawing to look at.

4- Constant updates and improvements. The improvements and features that have come about this past year is impressive, with more on the way. As a Rhino user, I've only used version 5. Besides bug fixes a few times a year, it's been the same since it was released in Oct. 2012. I'm not trying to knock Rhino, I still like it, but development is very slow. I have the version 6 Beta, but I don't see any earth shattering changes, at this point, anyway. Fusion on the other hand is improving quickly.

Like I said, everyone has different needs. For my needs, Fusion 360 has been a huge improvement over Rhino.

[mcramblet]

I, too, have been using Fusion 360 for one year, and I also came from Rhino. My conclusion, for the CAD work that I do, is the exact opposite. I'd have a very hard time going back to modeling with Rhino. I still use Rhino for a few things, like setting up scenes for rendering, but for the actual modeling of parts, I find Fusion far better than Rhino. Obviously, everyone has different needs and preferences, and I'm not trying to mitigate your choice. Since we have some similarities, I wanted to provide some balance with my perspective for the Fusion team and forum.

In my experience over the past year of using Fusion, I have to say that I didn't know what I was missing with Rhino. The four biggest game changers for me are:

1- Parametric modeling. This has saved me so much time. Just this week, from a base file with a couple of sketches, I was able to generate a family of thermoformed containers, all different sizes. This same project in Rhino would have required so much more work.

2- A robust modeling kernel. The kernel used in Rhino leaves a lot to be desired. I can't say how many times I'd have to resort to jumping through all sorts of hoops to create fillets manually, because the Rhino engine just could do it. Shelling is the same thing, always gave me fits. Fusion is so much more robust.

3- The Cloud. I actually like the fact that I know I have some built in redundancy. I create local backups of all of my files, but I like the fact that I also have them in an off-site location. Being able to send someone a link that they can follow and interact with the model has also been a great help, many have commented on how "cool" that is, when they are used to a static image or an e-drawing to look at.

4- Constant updates and improvements. The improvements and features that have come about this past year is impressive, with more on the way. As a Rhino user, I've only used version 5. Besides bug fixes a few times a year, it's been the same since it was released in Oct. 2012. I'm not trying to knock Rhino, I still like it, but development is very slow. I have the version 6 Beta, but I don't see any earth shattering changes, at this point, anyway. Fusion on the other hand is improving quickly.

Like I said, everyone has different needs. For my needs, Fusion 360 has been a huge improvement over Rhino.

[rumpelstielz]

@mcramblet

as i mentioned my primary issue is the inability to work with my local file system and the related copyright, security and workflow issues. Don't get  me wrong, i really like Fusion, for many of the reasons you mention and others as well, but my above mentioned reasons 1. and 2. just simply are a total deal breaker for me and most of my clients, something i hadn't really thought about in depth before last weeks events ... so i'd rather pull the plug now. If that changes at some point and i can work on my local file system like any normal software i might reconsider. I also really hate the automatic versioning system (open a file, do nothing, close it and it'll create a new version) and the fact that i cannot easily sort my files by creation or modification date. And i could go on with a lot of other issues related tto the cloud paradigm.

But i could probably agree in part on most of what you said concerning Fusion vs Rhino (except of course 3., i really have no need for sending someone a link to interact with my model or redundancy), the robust filet tools and headaches i had in Rhino with this are one of the reason which pushed me towards Fusion. But it's also not really possible to compare Fusion and Rhino 1:1 since Rhino really isn't a CAD program per se. Personally i do 90% of organic and free-form modelling and the sketch and construction history paradigm in Fusion is more of a nuisance to me most of the time than helpful. The one huge disadvantage of Fusion for example which hampered my workflow is the complete lack of proper curve editing tools. I use T-splines for Rhino heavily as well so i'm not loosing that and Grasshopper for parametric stuff so again no loss in the parametric department, and Grasshopper also does stuff that simply can't be done in Fusion which i was missing sorely. I've also had a lot of issues with the parametric workflow in Fusion which prevented me from using it as i wanted (parameters not being carried over and being buggy in the CAM workspace for example). Another thing i sorely miss from Rhino is the command line and the ability to quickly do stuff without having to click through dialog boxes and menus.

And lastly i have never ever lost revenue because of a technical problem in Rhino, last week was one of the most critical weeks in the year for me and i lost a client worth around 2k revenue because i missed his deadline and another k of revenue because i missed my deadline and couldn't create enough products i needed for the christmas design market i do once a year. If i had been able to work the 2 days i lost with Fusions outage i could've had more stock at my stall this weekend and because i didn't i was sold out halfway through the market and everytime i had a customer walk off with empty hands i was cursing Autodesk.

the grass is never greener anywhere anyways, just a different shade maybe, and ideally i'd be using both, which i did a lot in this year.

[rumpelstielz]

@mcramblet

as i mentioned my primary issue is the inability to work with my local file system and the related copyright, security and workflow issues. Don't get  me wrong, i really like Fusion, for many of the reasons you mention and others as well, but my above mentioned reasons 1. and 2. just simply are a total deal breaker for me and most of my clients, something i hadn't really thought about in depth before last weeks events ... so i'd rather pull the plug now. If that changes at some point and i can work on my local file system like any normal software i might reconsider. I also really hate the automatic versioning system (open a file, do nothing, close it and it'll create a new version) and the fact that i cannot easily sort my files by creation or modification date. And i could go on with a lot of other issues related tto the cloud paradigm.

But i could probably agree in part on most of what you said concerning Fusion vs Rhino (except of course 3., i really have no need for sending someone a link to interact with my model or redundancy), the robust filet tools and headaches i had in Rhino with this are one of the reason which pushed me towards Fusion. But it's also not really possible to compare Fusion and Rhino 1:1 since Rhino really isn't a CAD program per se. Personally i do 90% of organic and free-form modelling and the sketch and construction history paradigm in Fusion is more of a nuisance to me most of the time than helpful. The one huge disadvantage of Fusion for example which hampered my workflow is the complete lack of proper curve editing tools. I use T-splines for Rhino heavily as well so i'm not loosing that and Grasshopper for parametric stuff so again no loss in the parametric department, and Grasshopper also does stuff that simply can't be done in Fusion which i was missing sorely. I've also had a lot of issues with the parametric workflow in Fusion which prevented me from using it as i wanted (parameters not being carried over and being buggy in the CAM workspace for example). Another thing i sorely miss from Rhino is the command line and the ability to quickly do stuff without having to click through dialog boxes and menus.

And lastly i have never ever lost revenue because of a technical problem in Rhino, last week was one of the most critical weeks in the year for me and i lost a client worth around 2k revenue because i missed his deadline and another k of revenue because i missed my deadline and couldn't create enough products i needed for the christmas design market i do once a year. If i had been able to work the 2 days i lost with Fusions outage i could've had more stock at my stall this weekend and because i didn't i was sold out halfway through the market and everytime i had a customer walk off with empty hands i was cursing Autodesk.

the grass is never greener anywhere anyways, just a different shade maybe, and ideally i'd be using both, which i did a lot in this year.

[PhilProcarioJr]

@rumpelstielz

The automatic versioning on close can be turned off in your preferences, but that's a moot point if your moving on.

Just thought I would post that for others that didn't know about it.

[PhilProcarioJr]

@rumpelstielz

The automatic versioning on close can be turned off in your preferences, but that's a moot point if your moving on.

Just thought I would post that for others that didn't know about it.

[rumpelstielz]

---

@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

@rumpelstielz

The automatic versioning on close can be turned off in your preferences, but that's a moot point if your moving on.

Just thought I would post that for others that didn't know about it.

---

ok thx Phil, didn't know that, but another one of those very strange choices to have this enabled by default, why would anyone want to have a new version of a document if nothing at all has changed. and if you really do 'save new version' would do nicely

[rumpelstielz]

---

@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

@rumpelstielz

The automatic versioning on close can be turned off in your preferences, but that's a moot point if your moving on.

Just thought I would post that for others that didn't know about it.

---

ok thx Phil, didn't know that, but another one of those very strange choices to have this enabled by default, why would anyone want to have a new version of a document if nothing at all has changed. and if you really do 'save new version' would do nicely

[cekuhnen]

@rumpelstielz

Hi I read your post carefully and have few thoughts.

I am currently asking myself to be honest why you thought you could exchange your Rhino/Grasshopper/T-Splines selection with a parametric solid modeler like Fusion360.

Also in case intellectual property is such a high concern then why did you even start with Fusion considering that like with OnShape it is a known fact that they store data online.

I am a former Rhino user myself and taught it for years. The moment Fusion came out I even replaced Alias with it - which compared to Rhino is a dramatically better surfacing tool.

Even SolidThinking beats Rhino. Rhino I have to be honest, while having tons of tools and ten ways to draw a line is like SketchUp - it does a lot easy but what it really has to do well

it fails terribly at and that since YEARS such as fillets. Rhino is the weakest product in that regards.

In my situation the cloud is very useful. Because of my status I was not able to participate in a military project here in Michigan, and I can see that some companies also cannot use

this because of some laws and intellectual property protection rules. But hey the Chinese were able to get data about the F22 from the military complex servers. Do you think they

cannot hack into your PC? 

Is there any proof that the AD system is so easy to penetrate? I do not want to sound like lecturing but I find that some of the NDA concerns about intellectual property are rants.

One has to weight possible issue with gained benefit.

In my professional work as well as teaching the cloud is a fantastic tool.

finally no more sending files via emails

I work on multiple computers and OS - no more local double files and double tripple backups

I know everything will be synced well.

I am quite sure that after the recent unexpected server issue - LETS REALLY STRESS THE FACT THAT APPLE GOOGLE AND SUCH ALSO HAVE SERVER ISSUES - AD understood the need

for us users that we also need common local file storage and that for the future of Fusion cloud sync and storage should be secondary.

With OnShape the competitor you are fully locked only into the browser - no internet no access - and all the add-ons are just mainly PC and not iOS or Android.

So Fusion is much much better positioned here. Main reason I decided to go with Fusion.

I do not say that because of the server outage and lost revenue all things are peachy. I feel for you while I was lucky that I got not panelized by it.

But I would not rush decisions either.

In Lord of the Rings there is maybe one that rules them all - but I think today it is futile to force one design into one app.

I feed Fusion with CAD data with multiple apps. Currently I work on a medical project that I start external and then finish in Fusion because the geometry I need to create is too hard for a parametric system (not just Fusion) to do.

Does Fusion need more improvements - yes more surfacing tools, more stable sketch engine. But is Rhino perfect? After knowing it for 12 years does it do fillets better? Now!

With time Fusion only will get better.

So I would not give up on it because the server outage burned you.

Just my few thoughts.

[cekuhnen]

@rumpelstielz

Hi I read your post carefully and have few thoughts.

I am currently asking myself to be honest why you thought you could exchange your Rhino/Grasshopper/T-Splines selection with a parametric solid modeler like Fusion360.

Also in case intellectual property is such a high concern then why did you even start with Fusion considering that like with OnShape it is a known fact that they store data online.

I am a former Rhino user myself and taught it for years. The moment Fusion came out I even replaced Alias with it - which compared to Rhino is a dramatically better surfacing tool.

Even SolidThinking beats Rhino. Rhino I have to be honest, while having tons of tools and ten ways to draw a line is like SketchUp - it does a lot easy but what it really has to do well

it fails terribly at and that since YEARS such as fillets. Rhino is the weakest product in that regards.

In my situation the cloud is very useful. Because of my status I was not able to participate in a military project here in Michigan, and I can see that some companies also cannot use

this because of some laws and intellectual property protection rules. But hey the Chinese were able to get data about the F22 from the military complex servers. Do you think they

cannot hack into your PC? 

Is there any proof that the AD system is so easy to penetrate? I do not want to sound like lecturing but I find that some of the NDA concerns about intellectual property are rants.

One has to weight possible issue with gained benefit.

In my professional work as well as teaching the cloud is a fantastic tool.

finally no more sending files via emails

I work on multiple computers and OS - no more local double files and double tripple backups

I know everything will be synced well.

I am quite sure that after the recent unexpected server issue - LETS REALLY STRESS THE FACT THAT APPLE GOOGLE AND SUCH ALSO HAVE SERVER ISSUES - AD understood the need

for us users that we also need common local file storage and that for the future of Fusion cloud sync and storage should be secondary.

With OnShape the competitor you are fully locked only into the browser - no internet no access - and all the add-ons are just mainly PC and not iOS or Android.

So Fusion is much much better positioned here. Main reason I decided to go with Fusion.

I do not say that because of the server outage and lost revenue all things are peachy. I feel for you while I was lucky that I got not panelized by it.

But I would not rush decisions either.

In Lord of the Rings there is maybe one that rules them all - but I think today it is futile to force one design into one app.

I feed Fusion with CAD data with multiple apps. Currently I work on a medical project that I start external and then finish in Fusion because the geometry I need to create is too hard for a parametric system (not just Fusion) to do.

Does Fusion need more improvements - yes more surfacing tools, more stable sketch engine. But is Rhino perfect? After knowing it for 12 years does it do fillets better? Now!

With time Fusion only will get better.

So I would not give up on it because the server outage burned you.

Just my few thoughts.

[PhilProcarioJr · Accepted solution]

@rumpelstielz

"ok thx Phil, didn't know that, but another one of those very strange choices to have this enabled by default, why would anyone want to have a new version of a document if nothing at all has changed. and if you really do 'save new version' would do nicely"

I can't argue with you on that as I feel the same way. I also agree on the cloud issues and forced usage. I can definitely see where the cloud connectivity can be useful, what I can't get is the whole forcing us to use it, but it has been said by Kevin that if the cloud is an issue then Fusion isn't for you. So they have no plans to change that. They are working on a solution to make sure you have access to all your data all the time though, but no idea when that will happen.

Aside from not being able to get to data whenever I need it, I'm ok (not liking it), but ok with it. My biggest issue right now is Fusion can't handle my designs....too complex I have been told.

So I guess we all have choices to make, so if Fusion isn't right for you I get it. A little advice I can give you, be careful betting on Solidworks, I have horror stories for that conversation. I use it everyday at work and have since 1997....used to love it but over the last 5 years have grown to hate it and DS treatment of their customers.

Don't say I didn't warn you. There is a reason a large majority of their customers are looking to ditch it. 

[PhilProcarioJr · Accepted solution]

@rumpelstielz

"ok thx Phil, didn't know that, but another one of those very strange choices to have this enabled by default, why would anyone want to have a new version of a document if nothing at all has changed. and if you really do 'save new version' would do nicely"

I can't argue with you on that as I feel the same way. I also agree on the cloud issues and forced usage. I can definitely see where the cloud connectivity can be useful, what I can't get is the whole forcing us to use it, but it has been said by Kevin that if the cloud is an issue then Fusion isn't for you. So they have no plans to change that. They are working on a solution to make sure you have access to all your data all the time though, but no idea when that will happen.

Aside from not being able to get to data whenever I need it, I'm ok (not liking it), but ok with it. My biggest issue right now is Fusion can't handle my designs....too complex I have been told.

So I guess we all have choices to make, so if Fusion isn't right for you I get it. A little advice I can give you, be careful betting on Solidworks, I have horror stories for that conversation. I use it everyday at work and have since 1997....used to love it but over the last 5 years have grown to hate it and DS treatment of their customers.

Don't say I didn't warn you. There is a reason a large majority of their customers are looking to ditch it. 

[cekuhnen]

@rumpelstielz

I what I forgot to mention is also that it seems to me some approach CAD in an open way and some force their previously gained understanding

into a new app. When I learned Fusion and solid parametric (while today I call it rather generative in Fusion) modeling I missed many things from

Alias or Rhino.

For me first it was bizarre to have not the ability to rotate in sketch - while most engineering students know well you do that with angle constraints.

But the truth was that I did not yet fully adjust my workflow.

However you can also also approach sketches the way how it is taught in engineering or use it more freely with the idea of grasshopper in mind.

The same is true for patterns and all general surfacing tools. You can see it as timeline parametric modeling or like I do as time based generative modeling

which is very very close to Grasshopper. Grasshopper definitions also needs a lot of set-up time!

Today it works much better. Fusion for me is not an app - but an environment that offers amazing solid surface and sculpt modeling tools

either in pure direct modeling or timeline which also can make use of direct modeling as a feature.

Thats a pretty amazing and productive set of tools to have.

[cekuhnen]

@rumpelstielz

I what I forgot to mention is also that it seems to me some approach CAD in an open way and some force their previously gained understanding

into a new app. When I learned Fusion and solid parametric (while today I call it rather generative in Fusion) modeling I missed many things from

Alias or Rhino.

For me first it was bizarre to have not the ability to rotate in sketch - while most engineering students know well you do that with angle constraints.

But the truth was that I did not yet fully adjust my workflow.

However you can also also approach sketches the way how it is taught in engineering or use it more freely with the idea of grasshopper in mind.

The same is true for patterns and all general surfacing tools. You can see it as timeline parametric modeling or like I do as time based generative modeling

which is very very close to Grasshopper. Grasshopper definitions also needs a lot of set-up time!

Today it works much better. Fusion for me is not an app - but an environment that offers amazing solid surface and sculpt modeling tools

either in pure direct modeling or timeline which also can make use of direct modeling as a feature.

Thats a pretty amazing and productive set of tools to have.

[cekuhnen]

@PhilProcarioJr @rumpelstielz sorry I hit by accident the accept solution button.

@rumpelstielz Phil has a very good point. Look everybody wants on a resume that you know MS office because it is the industry standard.

Does that mean MS word is that great? No - many just use it. The same is true with SW. I agree with Phill here that SW comes with a big bag

of issues as well. Check the forums.

Also a don't forget the cost of it. In that regards I have to say Fusion is way to cheap for what it offers. Ad offers an incredible deal here.

Phill sorry that your designs are too heavy - I had that thought when I was reading through the issues you have. 300 sketches ... dear lord !!!

[cekuhnen]

@PhilProcarioJr @rumpelstielz sorry I hit by accident the accept solution button.

@rumpelstielz Phil has a very good point. Look everybody wants on a resume that you know MS office because it is the industry standard.

Does that mean MS word is that great? No - many just use it. The same is true with SW. I agree with Phill here that SW comes with a big bag

of issues as well. Check the forums.

Also a don't forget the cost of it. In that regards I have to say Fusion is way to cheap for what it offers. Ad offers an incredible deal here.

Phill sorry that your designs are too heavy - I had that thought when I was reading through the issues you have. 300 sketches ... dear lord !!!

[robduarte]

With respect to cloud storage, I honestly can't imagine working any other way at this point. I work between my laptop, two lab computers, and my office computer - between Macs and Windows - (generally) without a hiccup. It's one of the most important features for me at the moment. I like starting a render and looking at it on my phone or another computer later. In fact, I want MORE cloud - I want my "Recent" folder in the data panel to not be tied to the machine I'm sitting at, I want my custom Physical Materials and Appearances to stay in the cloud, etc. I have more confidence in the protection and availability of my data on some cloud services than I have with files sitting on my local computer. Of course, if that was my concern I could also save my files locally and back them up that way. I don't have privacy concerns with what I do with Fusion 360, however. This could be resolved by allowing the client software to encrypt the data before it's stored on the server, so "hackers" and/or Autodesk wouldn't be able to read the data. The other reason why I like Fusion 360 is because a feature like that can be suggested and you might see it implemented in a very short time. Autodesk is, at times, more responsive to user needs than some open source projects I've worked with. And Fusion 360 has significant updates with more frequency than any other software I use.

[robduarte]

With respect to cloud storage, I honestly can't imagine working any other way at this point. I work between my laptop, two lab computers, and my office computer - between Macs and Windows - (generally) without a hiccup. It's one of the most important features for me at the moment. I like starting a render and looking at it on my phone or another computer later. In fact, I want MORE cloud - I want my "Recent" folder in the data panel to not be tied to the machine I'm sitting at, I want my custom Physical Materials and Appearances to stay in the cloud, etc. I have more confidence in the protection and availability of my data on some cloud services than I have with files sitting on my local computer. Of course, if that was my concern I could also save my files locally and back them up that way. I don't have privacy concerns with what I do with Fusion 360, however. This could be resolved by allowing the client software to encrypt the data before it's stored on the server, so "hackers" and/or Autodesk wouldn't be able to read the data. The other reason why I like Fusion 360 is because a feature like that can be suggested and you might see it implemented in a very short time. Autodesk is, at times, more responsive to user needs than some open source projects I've worked with. And Fusion 360 has significant updates with more frequency than any other software I use.

[PhilProcarioJr]

@cekuhnen

The worst part for me is I really love working in Fusion, but as soon as I start getting excited about one of my designs Fusion slows to a crawl and sucks up 16GB of ram......then there is no more working in Fusion....

The thing is, I am probably a rare case for this type of problem, but Fusion needs more work on it's core and memory management before adding new feature sets. Like everyone else since we aren't the decision makers, if it doesn't work for our use case find something that does....

At the forge I work at Fusion is a perfect fit so I will definitely use it there for non-military work, but my home business....I don't get to choose Fusion...

[PhilProcarioJr]

@cekuhnen

The worst part for me is I really love working in Fusion, but as soon as I start getting excited about one of my designs Fusion slows to a crawl and sucks up 16GB of ram......then there is no more working in Fusion....

The thing is, I am probably a rare case for this type of problem, but Fusion needs more work on it's core and memory management before adding new feature sets. Like everyone else since we aren't the decision makers, if it doesn't work for our use case find something that does....

At the forge I work at Fusion is a perfect fit so I will definitely use it there for non-military work, but my home business....I don't get to choose Fusion...

[rumpelstielz]

@cekuhnen

it's always interesting to get other users perspective, a couple of points:

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

I am currently asking myself to be honest why you thought you could exchange your Rhino/Grasshopper/T-Splines selection with a parametric solid modeler like Fusion360.

i didn't, it was primarily a change from Rhinocam to the Fusion CAM system which uses much better toolpath strategies which in turn make my machine run smoother, is much cheaper and has a better overall workflow than Rhinocam. I initially continued to model in Rhino and then exported to Fusion for CAM. While working with Fusion in the beginning i also noted that the filet tools were more robust and because there are several advantages in the traditional sketch based and parametric workflow over the 'freeform' modeling in Rino i decided that it was maybe time to learn how to work this way.

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

Also in case intellectual property is such a high concern then why did you even start with Fusion considering that like with OnShape it is a known fact that they store data online.

as i said, i hadn't considered the wider implications of this, probably blinded by the 'free lunch' promise and the fun i had learning Fusion

---

@cekuhnen wrote:
But hey the Chinese were able to get data about the F22 from the military complex servers. Do you think they cannot hack into your PC? 

yes i absolutely think that, i have no open ports in my router and proper security in place which makes it next to impossible for anyone to get into my local network, that and the fact that a hacker would have much less interest even trying to breach my system than to get hold of the data of the US army or a huge corporation. but maybe i wasn't clear, i'm not super paranoid my files are going to end up in a chinese factory because the AD server is getting hacked, as with all things security it's more a matter of principle, there is no reason whatsoever for autodesk to have my design and production files and i simply do not want to 'share' my design and production process with anyone by default. but an even bigger issue is that for many of my clients i have to sign fairly extensive NDA's, most of which include financial penalties. Maybe that's a german thing since it's mainly my german clients that require this, and often i find those NDA's really over the top myself. But i have to guarantee that the designs i get and produce for my clients remain confidential and secure. since with Fusion this is out of my hands i essentially cannot sign many of these NDA's (again the full depth of this problem only pccured to me when i started to think of the wider implications.

---

@cekuhnen wrote:
LETS REALLY STRESS THE FACT THAT APPLE GOOGLE AND SUCH ALSO HAVE SERVER ISSUES

i do not use any of the google tools for the same reasons, i would never store contracts, invoices, balance sheets etc on a cloud system of a mega corporation

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

With OnShape the competitor you are fully locked only into the browser - no internet no access - and all the add-ons are just mainly PC and not iOS or Android.

never heard of onshape and you managed to convince me in one sentence never to even check them out

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

In Lord of the Rings there is maybe one that rules them all - but I think today it is futile to force one design into one app.

i also use many different apps (my Rhino workflow is already 5 apps: Rhino, Rhinocam, Grasshoper, T-splines and Vray)

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

So I would not give up on it because the server outage burned you.

i don't, not only because of this, mainly because of this, but also because of the other points i mentioned which just suck a lot of time from my daily productivity and below the line after a year with it at at the moment i cannot longer afford this. And i'm also not abandoning it but i'm taking a step back and will see how it evolves. I'll probably jump back on the wagon when it's a bit more mature and i have to battle less with it's issues and the cloud thing is a bit more user friendly and i really need it. Rhino is for sure far from perfect, much like any other software, but i've worked with it long enough to be very fast, i know it's shortcomings and nowadays rarely bump into them since i've adapted my modeling style to navigate around them (mostly) .. and really, this post wasn't at all meant to be about Rhino, i just mentioned that i'm going back to a workflow i know and which is more productive and less risky for me. i'll have to say it again: i don't think Rhino and Fusion can be compared, they're completely different tools

[rumpelstielz]

@cekuhnen

it's always interesting to get other users perspective, a couple of points:

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

I am currently asking myself to be honest why you thought you could exchange your Rhino/Grasshopper/T-Splines selection with a parametric solid modeler like Fusion360.

i didn't, it was primarily a change from Rhinocam to the Fusion CAM system which uses much better toolpath strategies which in turn make my machine run smoother, is much cheaper and has a better overall workflow than Rhinocam. I initially continued to model in Rhino and then exported to Fusion for CAM. While working with Fusion in the beginning i also noted that the filet tools were more robust and because there are several advantages in the traditional sketch based and parametric workflow over the 'freeform' modeling in Rino i decided that it was maybe time to learn how to work this way.

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

Also in case intellectual property is such a high concern then why did you even start with Fusion considering that like with OnShape it is a known fact that they store data online.

as i said, i hadn't considered the wider implications of this, probably blinded by the 'free lunch' promise and the fun i had learning Fusion

---

@cekuhnen wrote:
But hey the Chinese were able to get data about the F22 from the military complex servers. Do you think they cannot hack into your PC? 

yes i absolutely think that, i have no open ports in my router and proper security in place which makes it next to impossible for anyone to get into my local network, that and the fact that a hacker would have much less interest even trying to breach my system than to get hold of the data of the US army or a huge corporation. but maybe i wasn't clear, i'm not super paranoid my files are going to end up in a chinese factory because the AD server is getting hacked, as with all things security it's more a matter of principle, there is no reason whatsoever for autodesk to have my design and production files and i simply do not want to 'share' my design and production process with anyone by default. but an even bigger issue is that for many of my clients i have to sign fairly extensive NDA's, most of which include financial penalties. Maybe that's a german thing since it's mainly my german clients that require this, and often i find those NDA's really over the top myself. But i have to guarantee that the designs i get and produce for my clients remain confidential and secure. since with Fusion this is out of my hands i essentially cannot sign many of these NDA's (again the full depth of this problem only pccured to me when i started to think of the wider implications.

---

@cekuhnen wrote:
LETS REALLY STRESS THE FACT THAT APPLE GOOGLE AND SUCH ALSO HAVE SERVER ISSUES

i do not use any of the google tools for the same reasons, i would never store contracts, invoices, balance sheets etc on a cloud system of a mega corporation

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

With OnShape the competitor you are fully locked only into the browser - no internet no access - and all the add-ons are just mainly PC and not iOS or Android.

never heard of onshape and you managed to convince me in one sentence never to even check them out

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

In Lord of the Rings there is maybe one that rules them all - but I think today it is futile to force one design into one app.

i also use many different apps (my Rhino workflow is already 5 apps: Rhino, Rhinocam, Grasshoper, T-splines and Vray)

---

@cekuhnen wrote:

So I would not give up on it because the server outage burned you.

i don't, not only because of this, mainly because of this, but also because of the other points i mentioned which just suck a lot of time from my daily productivity and below the line after a year with it at at the moment i cannot longer afford this. And i'm also not abandoning it but i'm taking a step back and will see how it evolves. I'll probably jump back on the wagon when it's a bit more mature and i have to battle less with it's issues and the cloud thing is a bit more user friendly and i really need it. Rhino is for sure far from perfect, much like any other software, but i've worked with it long enough to be very fast, i know it's shortcomings and nowadays rarely bump into them since i've adapted my modeling style to navigate around them (mostly) .. and really, this post wasn't at all meant to be about Rhino, i just mentioned that i'm going back to a workflow i know and which is more productive and less risky for me. i'll have to say it again: i don't think Rhino and Fusion can be compared, they're completely different tools

[rumpelstielz]

---

@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

A little advice I can give you, be careful betting on Solidworks, I have horror stories for that conversation. I use it everyday at work and have since 1997....used to love it but over the last 5 years have grown to hate it and DS treatment of their customers.

Don't say I didn't warn you. There is a reason a large majority of their customers are looking to ditch it. 

---

yes i thought as much  ... i'll cross that bridge when i get there, for the moment the pricing is way out of my reach anyways since i have many things to invest in before i'm even considering it. the learning curve for me also is far to steep with SW, i spent a month training with it and since i don't have a traditional engineering background i felt like a toddler trying to drive a McLaren F1 ... Fusion on the other hand was the perfect tool i think for me to approach the sketch and history based parametric workflow and it's less steep learning curve was one of the things i love about it.

[rumpelstielz]

---

@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

A little advice I can give you, be careful betting on Solidworks, I have horror stories for that conversation. I use it everyday at work and have since 1997....used to love it but over the last 5 years have grown to hate it and DS treatment of their customers.

Don't say I didn't warn you. There is a reason a large majority of their customers are looking to ditch it. 

---

yes i thought as much  ... i'll cross that bridge when i get there, for the moment the pricing is way out of my reach anyways since i have many things to invest in before i'm even considering it. the learning curve for me also is far to steep with SW, i spent a month training with it and since i don't have a traditional engineering background i felt like a toddler trying to drive a McLaren F1 ... Fusion on the other hand was the perfect tool i think for me to approach the sketch and history based parametric workflow and it's less steep learning curve was one of the things i love about it.

[rumpelstielz]

---

@robduarte wrote:

 Autodesk is, at times, more responsive to user needs than some open source projects I've worked with. And Fusion 360 has significant updates with more frequency than any other software I use.

---

agreed, and one of the things i love about Fusion, i wouldn't generalise this on the whole of Autodesk however, the Fusion team is really special (yes i still love you guys ) but i have a whole herd of chickens to pluck with the Maya team and haven't touched it since i moved over to Houdini years ago for all the VFX stuff i do

[rumpelstielz]

---

@robduarte wrote:

 Autodesk is, at times, more responsive to user needs than some open source projects I've worked with. And Fusion 360 has significant updates with more frequency than any other software I use.

---

agreed, and one of the things i love about Fusion, i wouldn't generalise this on the whole of Autodesk however, the Fusion team is really special (yes i still love you guys ) but i have a whole herd of chickens to pluck with the Maya team and haven't touched it since i moved over to Houdini years ago for all the VFX stuff i do

[rumpelstielz]

---

@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

@cekuhnen

The worst part for me is I really love working in Fusion, but as soon as I start getting excited about one of my designs Fusion slows to a crawl and sucks up 16GB of ram......then there is no more working in Fusion....

The thing is, I am probably a rare case for this type of problem,

---

performance issues, especially in the CAM simulations are a huge issue for me too, and also a big part in the choice to go back to my old workflow ... and that's with really simple designs and toolpaths as well. in the modelling department i also have huge performance problems, the most complex project i did was my last electric guitar which even with all its parts and apointments can hardly be considered a 'complex' model, finishing that was a real pain with a redraw frame rate of 0.1 frames per second and simulating the CAM operations was out of the question so i flew blind most of the time. i tried to troubleshoot this with the Autodesk team but it couldn't be solved. Mike also agreed that it can't really be a problem with my workstation or graphics card which is more than up to specs .. it might be a bug or fault in one of my components of course but i'm not going to go out and buy a Quadro card and 16 core workstation to see if that fixes it. And since i use a whole garden variety of other professional 3D packages which don't have these issues i would be reluctant to do so anyways.

[rumpelstielz]

---

@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

@cekuhnen

The worst part for me is I really love working in Fusion, but as soon as I start getting excited about one of my designs Fusion slows to a crawl and sucks up 16GB of ram......then there is no more working in Fusion....

The thing is, I am probably a rare case for this type of problem,

---

performance issues, especially in the CAM simulations are a huge issue for me too, and also a big part in the choice to go back to my old workflow ... and that's with really simple designs and toolpaths as well. in the modelling department i also have huge performance problems, the most complex project i did was my last electric guitar which even with all its parts and apointments can hardly be considered a 'complex' model, finishing that was a real pain with a redraw frame rate of 0.1 frames per second and simulating the CAM operations was out of the question so i flew blind most of the time. i tried to troubleshoot this with the Autodesk team but it couldn't be solved. Mike also agreed that it can't really be a problem with my workstation or graphics card which is more than up to specs .. it might be a bug or fault in one of my components of course but i'm not going to go out and buy a Quadro card and 16 core workstation to see if that fixes it. And since i use a whole garden variety of other professional 3D packages which don't have these issues i would be reluctant to do so anyways.

[cekuhnen]

@PhilProcarioJr

"The thing is, I am probably a rare case for this type of problem,"

I think this can be quite right.

Right now I work on another medical dome that has close to 400 openings for sensors and such.

The math takes some time - and I don't even add fillets at this moment.

This is however a rather unusual project with a geometry load you don't find with power tools, cooking utilities and what not design.

I think it is fair to say that we are kinda pushing the limit of the app here.

Sadly I don't have SW because I would love to see how it would crunch through the math. I have the feeling that this project is slow

in general because how dense it is. Maybe I should give OnShape a try just for giggles.

[cekuhnen]

@PhilProcarioJr

"The thing is, I am probably a rare case for this type of problem,"

I think this can be quite right.

Right now I work on another medical dome that has close to 400 openings for sensors and such.

The math takes some time - and I don't even add fillets at this moment.

This is however a rather unusual project with a geometry load you don't find with power tools, cooking utilities and what not design.

I think it is fair to say that we are kinda pushing the limit of the app here.

Sadly I don't have SW because I would love to see how it would crunch through the math. I have the feeling that this project is slow

in general because how dense it is. Maybe I should give OnShape a try just for giggles.

[smallfavor]

I’m coming to Fusion from Rhino as well.  When I realized how easily Fusion handled filleting and bridging transitions I couldn’t imagine any further time wasted keeping the Rhino application satisfied.

However, Rhino has a much better tool interface.  Some of that is the dividend of years of user feedback.  But there’s also a sense the Rhino developers where ongoing serious users.  

I find Fusion’s tools tedious; they always reset to unwanted defaults generating an extra two or three clicks every time the tool is used.  They anticipate what’s wanted but it’s useful only half the time.  And I find myself with some unwanted geometry that’s needs to redone. That adds up to a good deal of time by the end of the day. 

As per rumptielz:

“the sketch and construction history paradigm in Fusion is more of a nuisance to me most of the time than helpful. The one huge disadvantage of Fusion for example which hampered my workflow is the complete lack of proper curve editing tools.” 

Parametric modeling and the timeline have some obvious benefit for fine-tuning a model.  This is a real treat for the OC in us all.  But so far (two months?) I find it confusing and frustrating understanding what’s required and what I’ve done wrong.  The marking menu gestures are clever, but I don’t find them all that natural.  I’d like to have other options like for instance in Rhino, the space bar repeats the last tool, and tool settings remain until changed for the most part.

Rhino doesn’t require the extent of planning Fusion does.  That’s fine for some endeavors, but in the case of product design, it can be stifling.  On the other hand, I’m very keen on the idea of a single application that will suffice for everything.  Eliminating the mental effort of switching to different interface conventions leaves more time for what’s important.  

Many obstacles will abate over time as I get my head around the concepts, but until I can assign hotkeys and macros, and set up tools as I need them, it will be less than professionally adequate. Once I can fine tune the interface, I can move along and have fun.  I’m not having much fun so far.  Please do focus development time on the tools interface.  Please.

I’m serious about a career in product design.  Which brings to mind rumpelstielz’s other concerns:

“i want to have full and exclusive control of my production files, at any and all times

Autodesk has no business of having my production and design files in the first place”

The ability to collaborate with (future) clients and other designers is a fantastic aspect of the cloud model.   However, he brings up a valid concern.  Clients I’ve dealt with in the past actually required an inspection of the facility and signing serious legal prohibitions.  The idea those sorts will be okay with proprietary data stored online is wishful thinking.   Perhaps some kind of compromise can be made that allows an encryption of the users/clients data and/or the option to keep some project files off the cloud.

Al things considered, I’m very glad AutoDesk created Fusion!   This forum has been a fantastic help.

[smallfavor]

I’m coming to Fusion from Rhino as well.  When I realized how easily Fusion handled filleting and bridging transitions I couldn’t imagine any further time wasted keeping the Rhino application satisfied.

However, Rhino has a much better tool interface.  Some of that is the dividend of years of user feedback.  But there’s also a sense the Rhino developers where ongoing serious users.  

I find Fusion’s tools tedious; they always reset to unwanted defaults generating an extra two or three clicks every time the tool is used.  They anticipate what’s wanted but it’s useful only half the time.  And I find myself with some unwanted geometry that’s needs to redone. That adds up to a good deal of time by the end of the day. 

As per rumptielz:

“the sketch and construction history paradigm in Fusion is more of a nuisance to me most of the time than helpful. The one huge disadvantage of Fusion for example which hampered my workflow is the complete lack of proper curve editing tools.” 

Parametric modeling and the timeline have some obvious benefit for fine-tuning a model.  This is a real treat for the OC in us all.  But so far (two months?) I find it confusing and frustrating understanding what’s required and what I’ve done wrong.  The marking menu gestures are clever, but I don’t find them all that natural.  I’d like to have other options like for instance in Rhino, the space bar repeats the last tool, and tool settings remain until changed for the most part.

Rhino doesn’t require the extent of planning Fusion does.  That’s fine for some endeavors, but in the case of product design, it can be stifling.  On the other hand, I’m very keen on the idea of a single application that will suffice for everything.  Eliminating the mental effort of switching to different interface conventions leaves more time for what’s important.  

Many obstacles will abate over time as I get my head around the concepts, but until I can assign hotkeys and macros, and set up tools as I need them, it will be less than professionally adequate. Once I can fine tune the interface, I can move along and have fun.  I’m not having much fun so far.  Please do focus development time on the tools interface.  Please.

I’m serious about a career in product design.  Which brings to mind rumpelstielz’s other concerns:

“i want to have full and exclusive control of my production files, at any and all times

Autodesk has no business of having my production and design files in the first place”

The ability to collaborate with (future) clients and other designers is a fantastic aspect of the cloud model.   However, he brings up a valid concern.  Clients I’ve dealt with in the past actually required an inspection of the facility and signing serious legal prohibitions.  The idea those sorts will be okay with proprietary data stored online is wishful thinking.   Perhaps some kind of compromise can be made that allows an encryption of the users/clients data and/or the option to keep some project files off the cloud.

Al things considered, I’m very glad AutoDesk created Fusion!   This forum has been a fantastic help.

[cekuhnen]

@smallfavor

It is true that the current UI needs further improvement. But also Rhino carries over old legacy workflows from AutoCAD. Split and trim select steps are flipped.

Space bar to repeat last menu would be great or if the gesture mouse menu would be faster I could replace it even better.

i found populating the "s" Toolbox to be very useful because it is workspace sensitive.

parametric modeling is not easy - it still requires some understanding and experience.

but that Is the same with rhino. Worse in rhino if you need to change something chances are that 99% you have to rebuild it.

the question is how do you as a creative person apply parametric sketches and modeling.

there are many levels of strategies you can select from.

i understand the attraction of one app does it all but from my experience that will never happen simply because Grasshopper Blender Alias fusion all have different approaches and philosophies.

that is why I stress to my students not to learn a software but understanding technology and the data mannipulation process currently accessible to us.

[cekuhnen]

@smallfavor

It is true that the current UI needs further improvement. But also Rhino carries over old legacy workflows from AutoCAD. Split and trim select steps are flipped.

Space bar to repeat last menu would be great or if the gesture mouse menu would be faster I could replace it even better.

i found populating the "s" Toolbox to be very useful because it is workspace sensitive.

parametric modeling is not easy - it still requires some understanding and experience.

but that Is the same with rhino. Worse in rhino if you need to change something chances are that 99% you have to rebuild it.

the question is how do you as a creative person apply parametric sketches and modeling.

there are many levels of strategies you can select from.

i understand the attraction of one app does it all but from my experience that will never happen simply because Grasshopper Blender Alias fusion all have different approaches and philosophies.

that is why I stress to my students not to learn a software but understanding technology and the data mannipulation process currently accessible to us.

[mcramblet]

@smallfavor-

“the sketch and construction history paradigm in Fusion is more of a nuisance to me most of the time than helpful"

This was probably the most difficult thing for me when switching to Fusion from Rhino. Sketching on a 2D plane seemed very limited and often the history didn't work as I expected. It took me a long time to adjust to the change in thinking that was needed.

"Parametric modeling and the timeline have some obvious benefit for fine-tuning a model"

I'd say that it's much more than that, once it's understood. Like I mentioned in my previous post, with a little up front planning and time spent creating a properly defined sketch, I could create a complete family of containers. I adjust a few numbers and bam!, everything adjusts with all features adjusting as needed. In Rhino, I'd literally have to go through the steps over and over to do the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I'd complete a fairly complicated thermoformed design in Rhino, complete with a bunch of manual fillets, only to have it come back with a change. I'd have to go back to a previously saved state, make the change and re-do everything from that point, including all of that manual work that Rhino can't seem to handle. With Fusion, if the customer or sales person wants a different size or other changes, not a problem. If I do my part in the beginning, changes in Fusion are a breeze. This takes some time and practice to understand, but it's well worth the effort.

I will agree on some of the tool issues, though. I do miss the way Rhino would remember the last input used and automatically inserts it. Also some of the sketching tools are nice. If I need to sketch some that doesn't need to be parametric, I'll still pop over to Rhino for some of that. I doubt any one program will do everything perfectly, but Fusion 360 is a very well rounded CAD tool that, for me, is pretty awesome.

[mcramblet]

@smallfavor-

“the sketch and construction history paradigm in Fusion is more of a nuisance to me most of the time than helpful"

This was probably the most difficult thing for me when switching to Fusion from Rhino. Sketching on a 2D plane seemed very limited and often the history didn't work as I expected. It took me a long time to adjust to the change in thinking that was needed.

"Parametric modeling and the timeline have some obvious benefit for fine-tuning a model"

I'd say that it's much more than that, once it's understood. Like I mentioned in my previous post, with a little up front planning and time spent creating a properly defined sketch, I could create a complete family of containers. I adjust a few numbers and bam!, everything adjusts with all features adjusting as needed. In Rhino, I'd literally have to go through the steps over and over to do the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I'd complete a fairly complicated thermoformed design in Rhino, complete with a bunch of manual fillets, only to have it come back with a change. I'd have to go back to a previously saved state, make the change and re-do everything from that point, including all of that manual work that Rhino can't seem to handle. With Fusion, if the customer or sales person wants a different size or other changes, not a problem. If I do my part in the beginning, changes in Fusion are a breeze. This takes some time and practice to understand, but it's well worth the effort.

I will agree on some of the tool issues, though. I do miss the way Rhino would remember the last input used and automatically inserts it. Also some of the sketching tools are nice. If I need to sketch some that doesn't need to be parametric, I'll still pop over to Rhino for some of that. I doubt any one program will do everything perfectly, but Fusion 360 is a very well rounded CAD tool that, for me, is pretty awesome.

[cekuhnen]

@mcramblet

That my complete point. What is the value of a great UI like in Rhino and the freedom of manipulating cad data when you literally have to restart from scratch when a design has to be changed.

That is why today I compare Rhino to SketchUp a glorified app.

What rhino should really be good at for industrial design exploring and adjusting ideas it is very poor at.

And that is the area where when the workflow got adjusted Fusion just runs circles around Rhino left and right.

Sent from my iPad

[cekuhnen]

@mcramblet

That my complete point. What is the value of a great UI like in Rhino and the freedom of manipulating cad data when you literally have to restart from scratch when a design has to be changed.

That is why today I compare Rhino to SketchUp a glorified app.

What rhino should really be good at for industrial design exploring and adjusting ideas it is very poor at.

And that is the area where when the workflow got adjusted Fusion just runs circles around Rhino left and right.

Sent from my iPad