MIRROR not working as expected.

[mark33.in.oz]

Hi folks.

Introduction:

ABS(BEGINNER)!

I (also) do NOT have Fusion360 yet.   I am in a club which have it and am just getting into designing from a student level.

I go to the group and am being "shown how to design things" and they use F360 on their machines, so I only get 2 hours a week to use it.

I was given a Windows 10 machine which I thought would be the answer to my needs of F360.   But the installed O/S is 32 bit.   Seems that is not supported.  So I am going to have to do research there too.

THEREFORE I CAN'T SUPPLY SCREEN SHOTS OR ANY OTHER FILES.

(I use Ubuntu and I haven't found a F360 which installs on it.  Though I have only had a quick look.)

So, to the "problem":

I have played with the MIRROR command on a 3D object and it seems to work.   But that is only at THIS level.

Basic objects with holes, grooves, bumps, etc.

I then got into an object (say a rectangle) with a "flange"? at one end.

Say 10 degrees off vertical on one end.

I then select MIRROR and select the OBJECT.   I then select the face which is flanged.

When I do this, I get a new object shown connected to the original object but now sticking into the "air" at 20 degrees (2 x 10).

GREAT!  It works!   Well, after this it all falls in a heap.

I make a triangle.    Equilateral for now.   No big deal.   Say 40mm each side.

I then create an offset plane 150mm vertical.

On that plane I create another triangle (1mm / side).

I then LOFT the two together.

A pyramid - or what ever it is really called.   But I hope you are with me to here.

Next:  I make ANOTHER OFFSET PLANE 10mm above the first one.

I draw a square large enough to be bigger than the triangle.

I then extrude it up 140mm (CUT MODE) so all that is left is a 40mm triangle which is 10mm high.

I did it this way to get the "required angle" on the flange.

This is where it all falls apart.

I want to mirror that triangle to itself on one of the "flanged" sides.

I select the triangle (object) but can NOT select the side.

**  Previously I could with the other object as stated above **

The ONLY mirror I can get is the top or bottom sides.

I have asked for help within the group but the best someone can do is to mirror it on the horizontal axis.  Beyond that:  They too are stuck.

Seems weird that F360 can't mirror this triangle at the angle.

****

Back story:

I am maybe going about this the wrong way - which is typical for me, but...... - I am wanting to create an: 

Truncated icosahedron

(Sorry:  cut/paste)

and have NO IDEA how else to make the triangles but to use radius distance to get the angle "draft" for the edges.

Now, I also know that equilateral triangles are not the ones needed, but where I am on the learning curve, I'm starting with making a triangle and mirroring it.

And that isn't happening.

If someone doesn't mind taking the time to help me with the maths to work out how to create said triangles for the "truncated icosahedron" it would be appreciated, but I feel that is not in the annex of this group.

[davebYYPCU]

I am guessing, for your first problem, not able to mirror using the face of the resulting inclined body.

If the top and bottom triangles are not exactly parallel, the face will not be flat.

Quick fix, is to make a 3 point plane, selecting any 3 vertices of that face, and use it to mirror.

Can't help with the larger problem 

Might help....

[mark33.in.oz]

Well, I am not quite getting what you say.

Using a paint program this is the best effort I can do to explain the idea of the triangle.

The grey area is the top and the "blue" is the flanged side.

The red arrow points to the side showing the flange.   It is flat.   (SMOOTH?)

(Via edit.   FLAT?  Smooth?   All flats are also smooth.  No bumps.  Which is probably better than I first explained.)

Why can't I use it as the "plane" to use in the mirror?

I shall TRY to get screen shots of the examples I have made that do work.

Alas I am not really wanting to flood the thread with a squillion screen shots showing how I made it.

But I created the triangle as I explained.

If the top and bottom triangles are not exactly parallel, the face will not be flat.

Why wouldn't the sides not be flat?

The bottom is made on the first plane.

The top of the triangle is made from an offset plane 10mm ABOVE the first plane.   If it isn't parallel, F360 isn't doing its job.

Even if it isn't parallel..... 10mm at one side and 15 at the other......    That will only be different thicknesses.

The flange would still be flat.

[davebYYPCU]

You have used a Loft,

and Loft will not really care if the side of the top triangle in not exactly parallel with the lines in the bottom triangle, 

therefore that face will be Twisted, and not flat.  If mirror doesn't work, it is likely twisted.

If you Extrude the bottom Triangle with a draft angle, it will definitely mirror off the side face because it will not be twisted.

Might help...

[mark33.in.oz]

Well, "we" seem to be going in circles here.

The REAL problem is me not knowing the maths behind how to make that "sphere"/iso..... thingy.

Although on paper (and on a lot of links) they show you how these things are drawn/made:  they are all just drawings, and the surfaces are 2D.

F360 is a 3D program.   (Isn't it?)

So, I am wanting to make one of these shapes.

For now I will be happy if I can get it working with hexagons and pentagons.   Forget the triangles at this stage.

(Walk before you can run, kinda)

So, the diameter of the sphere is determined by the size of the hexa/panta-gons.

But the flush (I think that's the term used) angle will ALWAYS be the same from what I can see.

Ok, so it is constant.   There should be a formula to get it.  (Beats me, so I'll improvise.)

I create an object (ok, I used a triangle, and although it is ahead of what I just said:  I am going to get to it at some stage anyway.....) and extrude it.

The angles are all 90 degrees.   Given.

So how do I taper them?

I say taper only because the terms used are still beyond me, and I don't want to further confuse people by using the same work to mean two different things.

There is FILLET and DRAFT.

FILLET doesn't do what I want.   DRAFT does.   When I use DRAFT though, I don't know the angle.

So, to get around this lack of knowledge I extrude the object to the center of the circle.

Obviously at the center it has to be a lot smaller in size.  So I make a smaller copy of the 2D object and LOFT to it.

I'm not going to quote what LOFT says., but if I have a triangle (say 40mm length sides) and another one with 1mm sides IN THE SAME ORIENTATION as the bigger one, and I  **LOFT** between the two:   how do surfaces get "bent"?

(or become "non-flat"?)

Sure I could maybe loft to a closer plane and have a bigger second object - say 3mm...... - but as I have already mentioned:   F360 is a DESIGN PROGRAM THAT WORKS IN 3D.....  So 1mm, 3mm, 3 KM......   The maths is the same.

I have spent several hours last night (after getting 64 bit windoze installed) TRYING to get my head around how to do this - by not doing the loft, but just a constant series of guesses at the FILLET angle.

I am then trying to align the pieces with no overlap - as I want to get it right, rather than cheat with overlaps - and that is a whole lot of pain in itself.

Here are a couple of example jobs I have created.

YES I AM NOT DOING IT RIGHT!

But I am spending hours working out how to move items around in this world.

Axis directions, pivot points.... and all that.

Ok, I am kind of getting off track and maybe need to get a better grip on those first.

But as I have found:  you best see your capabilities when they are needed.    It isn't always good to just play with things.   The more you play with things:  The hard they can get.

Have a look at the three files attached - I hope - and TRY to get a grip on what I am wanting to do.

Sphere is my first attempt.

Sphere2 is where I am trying to join the hexagons - leaving out the pentagons - and building the "skeleton".

The hexagons are lying around waiting to be put in.

Cup is another attempt where I have got 4 hexagons in a very basic "cup" position and then added 3 pentagons in the "holes" to complete the cup.

The upper two sides of the pentagons are WORK IN PROGRESS, as I don't know what their size needs to be to make things work.

But I'm trying.

As I now have F360 working and can show you what I am trying to do it may make things a lot easier for all.

(Great:  "preview" doesn't seem to be working)

[davebYYPCU]

Settle, we can do it in Fusion, I will check the files shortly.  

Will compare the files to the text, but in the meantime 

For the triangle, equilateral pyramid, Loft to the centre point of the sphere, done.

Back soon.

[mark33.in.oz]

Thank you very much.

The files will (I hope) clear a lot of the confusion.

[davebYYPCU]

Ok, I see what you want, Fusion will do some of the maths for you.  You have answered most of your own questions, and given me some clues, however this sort of work is not in my atmosphere, will try and bring you back to earth.

Although on paper (and on a lot of links) they show you how these things are drawn/made:  Good. 

they are all just drawings, and the surfaces are 2D.  No Problem, Fusion needs the sketches as foundation.

You have done really well to have one sketch in the file, but will be so much easier if you had taken the setting out from the material references you know about.

So, the diameter of the sphere is determined by the size of the hexa/panta-gons. Really?, take your word on that

But the flush (I think that's the term used) angle will ALWAYS be the same from what I can see.  

Let's call it taper angle.

I am then trying to align the pieces with no overlap - as I want to get it right, rather than cheat with overlaps - and that is a whole lot of pain in itself.`

What about we let Fusion do the hard work, and we can get going.  

Where did the 21 deg draft angle come from?  Doesn't divide into 360 deg to a round number.

in my testing, probably way off, 

To pattern the tile with 21 degrees, means 9 tiles overlap, and 8 are not enough.

Change taper angle to 18 degrees, and you get 10 tiles, your maths / requirements can be edited.

Two sketches so far, to find the centre point of the model.

I have started editing one of the files, you don't need 6 draft commands, when Extrude will do it, with the taper angle.  I have a test pattern with 18 deg, and 10 tiles, to show the steps, 

plug in the known sizes from your reference material, lets know if you get stuck.

Might help....

[laughingcreek]

You could let fusion do all the math for you.  Here's a link to a previous discussion about making a truncated-icosahedron, with a screen cast by yours truly.  This method uses components and joints to place things (instead of the evil move command).  There are just 2 unique components.  1 hexagon sketch, and 1 pentagon sketch.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-design-validate/joint-to-create-a-truncated-icosahedron/m-...

[davebYYPCU]

I remembered that, and without a demo file in that thread, pressed on.

[davebYYPCU]

I apologise, I attached the wrong file this morning.  Sent you a PM.

I was on not on the right track with the hex going all the way round.

Mirror will only work on two hexagons, when joining to a pentagon it is a different angle.

I got one done, using Alex's method.

Might help....

[mark33.in.oz]

Sorright.

Mistakes happen.

Don't fret.

Progress has been made though.

I am happy for that at least.

And I didn't download the file.  Sorry still getting to grips with the new machine and having F360 accessible 24/7.

[TrippyLighting]

@mark33.in.oz so my question would be: What is the ultimate goal of this design ?

Is this going to result in something you want to physically make or are you just interested in the challenge of creating this geometry in Fusion 360 ?

As other posters have already show, the can be done in Fusion 360 although I'd likely take a different approach would I want to do this on Fusion 360.

However on the way from just being able to create basic geometry to actually making something there are many challenges to be overcome and I personally would be happy to be able to create this geometry very quickly so I can move on to the other challenges.

As such, I wouldn't use Fusion 360 at least to create the base geometry. I'd use Blender!

In Blender you can directly create these Geodesic structures and you have many more options through the interface than you currently have in Fusion 360. You can still export the mesh created in Blender and export it as .obj that you can import into Fusion 360 and convert into a BRep.

[mark33.in.oz]

My ultimate goal?

I guess it is just an exercise for now.

I have been "introduced to" F360 and have only JUST got a machine to use it locally myself.

In the mean time I saw the clip about making a ball of plywood and just love it.

I am wanting to make one - but that's a whole other story - but because I have seen the potential for F360 I thought I would use this as a good test bed to get my head around F360 and what it can do.

>  As other posters have already show, the can be done in Fusion 360 although I'd likely take a different approach would I want to do this on Fusion 360.

Sorry....   "the can be done"   ? 

"different approach would I want"   ?

Yes, I agree that getting this done quickly is  a goal, but not so fast that I don't understand what it is I have just done.

As you may also note:  On the video the hexagons and pentagons are even more complex than I am doing here.

This is because - as I said - I am only doing this to get a better feel for F360.

Once I get the side angles (flanges?) worked out - which I think has been by someone else - then it is just a case of building the objects (the hexa/penta-gons) and building the "soccer ball".

BLENDER

Yeah, seen that too.

But haven't played with it as much because I don't have a 3D printer or router.

I'll maybe look at that.

But for now, I don't want to over complicate my journey into the land of F360.

Again:  This entire exercise is just to get a feel for F360 rather than actually design/build it all in F360 and on a 3D printer.

[TrippyLighting]

---

@mark33.in.oz wrote:

My ultimate goal?

I guess it is just an exercise for now.

---

OK. Fair enough!

Here is a truncated icosahedron done completely in Fusion 360:

• Mathematically precise
• Fully parametric
• with correct componet count.
• Components are designed in place (top down) and then patterned
• All assembled using a single rigid group joint.

In order to replicate this you need to understand the method of construction I used for this, which can be found on the wikipedia site. I used the golden rectangle construction method. This and the screenshot below is all you should need for now to get you started.

 

[TrippyLighting]

Could not help myself ....

[mark33.in.oz]

FANTASTIC!

I shall look at the site/s and put some serious effort into doing that myself.

On a side question:

(Yeah, ok, I should put some effort into this too)

I am trying to learn how to make the different objects different colours like you did.

It will be easy/simple, but going through the menus I can't find anything that would support it.

[davebYYPCU]

Browser > Component > Body, Select it, right mouse menu > Appearance.

Has a dialogue with material types and colours.

[mark33.in.oz]

I am guessing it is because of lack of stuff done by me, but when I do what you say I see/get this:

So I shall have to set that up to give me colours?

Found some textures, but when I try to "apply them" to the pentagon (2D object) nothing really changes.

[TrippyLighting]

You need some 3D geometry to apply colors to. Obviously!