Joints stop functioning when inserting into a new design

Anonymous

Joints stop functioning when inserting into a new design

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi there!

 

  I've been getting back into Fusion 360 recently and built a small prototype yesterday in it, which contains a few joints. The design seems functional (I can grab parts of the model, and movement is constrained appropriately). However, when I insert this into a new design (I need to arrage 7 of this specific part around a larger part), the joints no longer function. I can drive them manually by clicking each one, but none of the joints constrain properly when I grab the model. Screenshots are below.

 

Arm design by itself, being moved around fine:

 

undefined

 

Arm inserted into another design, being dragged in the same manner as before:

 

undefined

 

As you can see, the component at the back preserves it's grounding (I turned this off and on a few times, as you can see in the Timeline, to see if that would help), but none of the other pieces move correctly. I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong, but I can't find any additional options when it comes to joint manipulation inside the viewport.

 

Unrelated: I know there was supposed to be an update soon to allow joint manipulation inside Animation view, but I still don't see the option (I took a month or two off from Fusion 360 to let some of the features cook). Would there be any word on when that will be implemented?

 

Thanks!

~Lexikitty

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Phil.E
Community Manager
Community Manager

I'm testing this scenario and cannot reproduce the bad effect.

 

Would it be possible to add me to the project so I can look at your data first hand?

 

phil dot eichmiller at autodesk dot com

 

Thanks!





Phil Eichmiller
Software Engineer
Quality Assurance
Autodesk, Inc.


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Anonymous
Not applicable

I believe I've invited you correctly. Let me know if you don't see it. 

 

The original part is "Arm Bracket (v17)", which is being inserted inside "Gauntlet with Arm Bracket (v7)". 

 

Thanks!

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Phil.E
Community Manager
Community Manager

Thanks for the invite. I'll check this out today and respond soon.





Phil Eichmiller
Software Engineer
Quality Assurance
Autodesk, Inc.


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Phil.E
Community Manager
Community Manager

Couple of things:

Thanks for posting this. I've turned it over for investigation by development. I can't find the reason the joints would fail.

 

Good news is there is a workaround. Try this:

1. When you insert the jointed assembly, the base is grounded. This ground must be removed in order to apply joints to this model.

2. Assuming the base is where it joins the main assembly component, use a joint to assemble the base of your insert to the main component.

3. The assembly comes apart. (this is the thing that should be investigated, this is not expected behavior).

4. Next just apply another joint to re-attach the swing arm portion to the base. The joints seem to work well now.

 

Please let me know if this helps and when I get a better answer I'll follow up here.

 

Thanks,

 





Phil Eichmiller
Software Engineer
Quality Assurance
Autodesk, Inc.


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Anonymous
Not applicable

Thanks for your quick reply, and for looking into this! 

 

Unfortunately, following your steps, there doesn't seem to be any change in the results. To check to see if there was something perhaps odd with the sculpted section, I created a new design containing only one component - a box serving as the "main assembly base", and the inserted swing-arm assembly. I un-grounded the swing-arm base, attached the swing arm base to the main assembly base with a Rigid joint, and then attached the swimg-arm bracket with a Revolute, as below. 

 

 

undefined

 

Again, animating/driving the joint works fine. But as soon as I click and drag the swing-arm, it ignores the revolute and wanders off into space:

 

undefined

 

I zoomed fairly far out and tried to see if the swing-arm was following any other sort of constrait (perhaps a ball-joint or cylindrical joint around a different axis/component) but there doesn't seem to be any limitation to it. The test/basic design is called "Gauntlet with Arm Bracket 2" inside the Testing Desk project, if you need to look at it/send it along. 

 

Thanks again for your help, and sorry to be a pain. I just need to start protyping something for a project beginning June 1, and I'm trying to use this as my migration point to Fusion 360 from Blender/Sketchup. 

 

Cheers, 

~LK

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Anonymous
Not applicable

A bit more data. I also tried adding a rigid joint from the corner of the inserted base to the main assembly base, then re-creating the revolute, in case Fusion was unhappy about me putting two joints along one hole. Unfortunately, still no dice. 

 

undefined

 

Cheers, 

~LK

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Phil.E
Community Manager
Community Manager

Thanks for the additional info.

 

I made a video showing the workaround. In my case it works, perhaps this will help. See below.

 

As soon as we know what's going on we'll let you know! Sorry for the trouble.

 

Thanks,

Phil

 

https://screencast.autodesk.com/main/details/3f9862e0-0674-4849-bfcb-ccebb9902215





Phil Eichmiller
Software Engineer
Quality Assurance
Autodesk, Inc.


1 Like

Anonymous
Not applicable

Perfect! Thanks for that - it's working now. I believe I may have found the source of the problem, (and it's probably my fault, but I'm surprised Fusion 360 allowed it/didn't yell at me for doing it). 

 

When selecting the bracket>inserted base joint, you selected the rim of the hole in the bracket, whereas I selected the middle of the hole. This selected a visible Sketch17, which was what I used to cut the hole in the bottom of the bracket. So instead of joining the bracket and it's friends, Sketch17 was being moved over and joined. However, that doesn't explain why driving and animating the joints still worked, but it does perhaps give some insight to the dev team on where Fusion got confused. Perhaps in later versions of Fusion, joint selection can be restricted to components only, and not sketches. *shrug* Thanks for your help, and sorry that it ended up being my fault!

 

undefined

 

Cheers, 

~LK

 

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Phil.E
Community Manager
Community Manager

I'm glad it's working and thanks for the additional info. Sometimes it's the little things and this should be shown to the UX team, so thanks again.

 

For the sake of any other users that may encounter this, toggling sketch visibility (off) or using a Selection filter would help to prevent this.





Phil Eichmiller
Software Engineer
Quality Assurance
Autodesk, Inc.


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Phil.E
Community Manager
Community Manager
Accepted solution

Here is a more detailed explanation from the developer:

 

"...the sketch was in the root of component A. Hence it was automatically grounded (root can’t move). This made it work properly in A because the component that was supposed to be joined was grounded (my guess). Note: if the component that was supposed to be joined was not grounded in A, the user would have noticed the mis-selected component earlier.

 

When A is inserted into B, A:1 becomes ungrounded. This is proper and would cause headaches if we grounded A:1. Once the sketch is free to move, the joint no longer functions as expected.

 

So there are two issues:

  1. It is easy to accidently attach a joint to sketch geometry instead of body geometry. This is a selection priority issue, not a joint command issue I think. Normally, this would be noticed sooner, perhaps during joint animation. In this case, due to grounding, it was not noticed.
  2. The root of an inserted component is ungrounded in the parent. This is proper, but can cause confusion if joints are created with assumption that it will stay grounded.




Phil Eichmiller
Software Engineer
Quality Assurance
Autodesk, Inc.


1 Like

Anonymous
Not applicable

Wow, thanks for the detailed explination. I really appreciate the level of detail in your answer. I only have one question - what defines/identifies a sketch as being the "root" of a component? The sketch in question was applied halfway through the design of that component, and is in the middle of the list, so I just wondered if there is an easy way to identify (and manage) sketches considered as "root" by F360. 

 

Other than that, I'm totally up and running, and I will pay closer attention to accidentally interacting with sketch geometry!

 

Cheers,  

~LK

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Phil.E
Community Manager
Community Manager

Great question.

 

For designs with one component, the root is the entire component: sketches, bodies, analysis, construction, etc. with necessarily no joints or subcomponents.

 

Since Fusion allows each file to be either a single component (minimally perhaps just one sketch, one body, no child components), or an assembly (multiple components), or BOTH (!), there are some rules that allow this flexibility, but require a little diligence. Yours was a "BOTH" case and  the Arm Bracket is a good example of top-down design.

 

In Top Down designs, it's possible that all sketches and bodies start at the root and later get pushed into Components. This is totally fine for a single design that will not be inserted into other designs. And actually, most of the time there is no problem at all with re-use/insertion. In your case, we found a UI problem, but the program was functioning as designed. The next update has improvements to this area.

 

Generally, the best practice for top-down designs that are going to be assemblies:

1. Use New Component (RMB top root node)

2. Activate the new sub-component.

3. All sketches and bodies will go into the sub-component that is active.

4. Activate the root to add things to the root - like inserting more parts.

 

Here are some pictures.

 

undefined

 

Use the radio button to activate components.

 

undefined

 

Another benefit of this style:

 

undefined





Phil Eichmiller
Software Engineer
Quality Assurance
Autodesk, Inc.


2 Likes

Anonymous
Not applicable

Jibbers Crabst, y'all are a helpful lot. Thanks very much for that additional information - it lends a lot of clarity to the situation (and how to cleanly edit assemblies). Good to know for this and future F360 designs!

 

Cheers, and thanks a ton, 

~LK

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We use NMPI Display to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by NMPI Display. Ads are based on both NMPI Display data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that NMPI Display has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to NMPI Display to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. NMPI Display Privacy Policy
VK
We use VK to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by VK. Ads are based on both VK data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that VK has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to VK to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. VK Privacy Policy
Adobe Target
We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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