Is there a tool for centering a component within a structure?

Is there a tool for centering a component within a structure?

CLmoss
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Message 1 of 65

Is there a tool for centering a component within a structure?

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

I have a 19" rack mount enclosure with a 17" cage on the back of the front panel.  In side the cage I have a circuit deck. I have been fooling around with it, trying to center it.  Is there a tool or function that will auto center this for me?  See attached.  

JM

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Message 41 of 65

Anonymous
Not applicable

I am still a newbe but I have used the Joint Origin for this type of thing.

Joint Origin is wonderful.

It is very worthwhile learning how the little Joint Origin works and orients.

 

Message 42 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

OK Trippy, here you go, the file.

Show me how this is not a bug. (bug = a programming loose end)

 

Jim

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Message 43 of 65

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

Big problems with that file How did you get so many yellow warnings.

 

you have one dead sketch, one sketch in the wrong places for what you wont to do and one odd size sketch.

 

How did you do the cut outs there is missing geometry there.

 

From what i can see in that file it's all user not know how to do something correctly, the cutouts could be done from the bottom or the side of the model with a sketch and would be fine.

 

I would not expect trippy to reply, To be blunt by what I see in your file you should apologise to him. 

 


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
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My Websight, Daniels Wheelchair Customisations.
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Message 44 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

It I is my opinion that you are a True Believe and won't look far enough into the warnings.  

Well, so then what was done wrong?  

 

I should tell you that you are the second Autodesk person I have talked to today.  That person did much better, went deeper.  

Apparently there is more to the file than what you see.  

Even the yellow warning messages tell me more than that. 

 

Why would there be yellow warning messages for using negative extrusion

Hint: Could it be that the location references are broken?  

JM

 

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Message 45 of 65

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

I can see what is wrong, it's plain as day. I don't have time to break it down and the biggest part is there is missing geometry. .

 

Attached is your file redone the way I would do it.

 


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
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Message 46 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

OK, Good.  What missing geometry and how could that happen? 

Where is the reference to the missing geometry? How did you find it?

When you say geometry do you mean Sketch or Body... or what?

 

I checked out your file. 

What were your steps?

-----------------------------

Here is what I did:

1) I sketch a rectangle and push it to 0.75"" which makes it a body. Call it (Body 1) Used Offset of 0.09375" then negative CUT extrusion on that to create side panels.

2) I sketch another rectangle, this time to the size that overlaps the base rectangle in areas I need cut away.

This is so later I can move it into exactly where I need to cut. I can't move the sketch to the plane where I need it. 

I give it a 0.1" of push which makes a body out of it.  Now, I can move a body in any plane. So, I locate the where I want the cut. 

3) Once the new 0.1" deep body is in placed directly over (Body 1)  I perform a negative CUT extrusion which removes the area I need cleared. 

How can that produce a yellow warnings?  That is, if the program is functioning correctly.

I got the idea from Lars Christensen here at 14.00 minutes. 
Only, I overlapped an 2 edges for what I needed.  I did this for all cuts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5bc9c3S12g

 

JM

 

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Message 47 of 65

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

The part that there is missing geometry is the part that has no sketch or anything like that above or on the cut out.

 

If you look how I did the cutouts It's with the sketch that makes the body.

 

There is a few reasons I do it that way.

 

1) it's super hard to accidentally move that part of the sketch.

 

2) It's very easy to change the sketch and add to it.

 

3) I have found the model is more stable.

 

The reasion for 1 is if you move the body's sketch or the cutouts sketch by accident you get the yellow warnings or a complete fail.

 

The reasion for 2 is diamention and constraints placed at the correct spot lock it down and if you wont to move a line's positions you just use the dimensions to do it and if the constraints are doing there job and are placed at the correct spots the sketches move in a predictable way.

 

For 3 it's if you have other elements attached to a stable component, body or sketch, when you change that what ever it will move together.

 

Also it's one sketch 3 extrudes it's a tiny file.

 

I do cabinet making the same way not very many sketches but lots of extrudes, patterns and move/copies it's very stable this way with a object that I can changes on the fly with next to no fails and it may be one constraint or a diamention put in the wrong places, I fix it and it's all good.

 

My steps to do it was just ruff in the sketches, do the constraints then dimension it, do the extrude for the outside profile do the extrude for the inside bottom of the body then I just extrude/cut the cuts outs, tested the model to make sure it was stable and exported it out and posted it.

 

Just haveing sketches placed here or there and just doing it that way as you are not sure that is where you wont the sketch to be, can work and should work, I give you that one here's my but on that.

If you move the body what will happen to the sketches if they are now on the wrong plane or are being used in the body, the answer is something i never wont to know, it will be yellow and red flags. so I just don't go there. It can be by accident.

 

You can fix it when it first goes yellow or red by redefining the sketch plane then useing constraints and dimensions to lock it down or just redo it.

 

if you leave it be and carry on it will get worse as what happened to your file it just died.

 

We know there are problems with fusion and if you do stuff one way it can be bad.

 

So to make things easier for noobs to fusion, we have this forum I was a noob 2 years ago, I made big mistakes one of the fusion staff did a screencast for me that put me on track, then I need to know how to do something else, I asked one of the EE and he said how to do it, I still do it the same way and he still is a EE.  

 

You can still do it the way you are doing it, it should work ( I would not do it that way myself) but as soon as a yellow warning pops up stop and fix it, if something has move redefine sketch if you cant fix it jump on the forum and post the file or a screencast and a description of what you wont to do.

if redefining the sketch fixes it carry on then.

 

Now to you know lots about programming that's cool, but this is cad/cam thinking about it as a coder it wont help you at all, there is quite a lot of computer guys here and in the end it's a cad/cam program that you can help evolve with add ons and that sort of things in the api. I am not haveing a go it's something I see all the time computer dudes rageing that they know all about programming and it should do this or that and they have a hard time working with fusion until they just let it go and do it the fusion way.

 

The vids you have to be careful A lot of them are out of date now anything from the start of 2016, may be wrong, 2015 a high chances it's out of date. 

 

I don't work for ADSK I am just a user, ANd there is no attack on you from me, it's me saying what I see and only that.

 

And I will help you if you need it or wont it.


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Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
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My Websight, Daniels Wheelchair Customisations.
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Message 48 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Well, thank you.  That was very helpful.  

I am not exactly clear on one point yet.  You made the body with the edges.  Then you did something to create the cut-outs.  How did you do that?  Did you sketch over the body... ?  It can't be that because that would be similar to what I did.  I am not clear on what is different in how you made the cuts.  Maybe there are tools I have not used yet. 

 

Thanks again for your help. 

JM

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Message 49 of 65

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

One trick that's not covered enough move the timeline to the sketch, then move forward one action at a time, you just drag it with the mouse or move it to the end and hit the play symbol, That will show the steps i did, all sketches elements are in the sketch for the body.

 


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
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Message 50 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Yeah, I saw that, but I am not clear on how you made the cuts.  I made rectangles and did neg extrusions. I don't see that on your example.  How did you specify (sketch) the lines to be cut in such a way as to avoid the use of bodies like I did?  

 

It looks like you made one sketch that included lines that would become the outline of the main body, then also with what would be cut away in the last extrusion. I was thinking of trying that approach last night.  It looks like you used the outer lines for the first extrusion.  Then the inner lines to make the cut-away extrusion.  Is that right?  

 

To take this one step farther, one could sketch the outline of the finished shape and go from there.  

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Message 51 of 65

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

they are in the one sketch that's there. After I sketched it (what was just a rough sketch) and added some constraints, I measured what you did for the dimensions it could've been a guess.

 

The cut outs are in the last extrude. I just turned the sketch on then selected extrude then flipped the model over and selected the part of the sketch that was for the cutouts and flipped it back over and clicked on the top of the outside element of the body, that automatically set it to cut. if you click on the extrude and right click and hit edit feature you will see what I selected and what fusion set the extrude feature to.

 

One thing that gets a lot of people when you do your sketch you don't need to diamention it then at all, you can move it around changing the positions of different parts of the sketch, to what the constraints that are there will let you do.

once the sketch looks about right you can add more constraints and the dimensions then.

 

One thing for you to try is sketch a rectangle draw 4 circles in it, then diamention the rectangle to 2 in square, then diamention the 4 circles to .125 inch now extrude the squire and the circles so you are left with a rectangle what is 1 inch thick.

 

now edit feature on the extrude and just click on the circles and hit ok.

 

you should have a rectangle with 4 holes in it.

 

now right click on the sketch and edit feature, diamention the 4 circles to be .125 inch in from 2 edges of of the rectangle ones done hit ok.

 

Now you should have a rectangle with 4 holes in the same places on each corner of the rectangle.

 

now go back and edit feature on the sketch again and change the squires size to 4 inch square and hit ok

 

Do this just as a simple exercise it should take a few mins, then you will see why I do it the way i do it, telling you wont realy help, somethings in fusion you have to work out your self. I cant do a screencast at the moment my net is almost used up.

 

And yes I did say rectangle. you can make it one of them as well and it should be fine.

 


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
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My Websight, Daniels Wheelchair Customisations.
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Message 52 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

OK, great.  SO we think that the base body was moved somehow and that changed all the relationships.  Hmm.  Sounds reasonable. 

I will try out what you did and get back to you. 

Thanks for your help.

JM

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Message 53 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

That worked good. Everything in on one 2-D plane. 

I have a question.  Now that I created this component, it turns out that I need to shrink one dimension by 0.020" from the 16.875" length.  I mean, that is very little. I can either go back and redesign the entire component...  or...  maybe there is a way to shrink that dimension somehow.   I mean, .020" out of 16.875" is not much.  

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Message 54 of 65

mavigogun
Advisor
Advisor

Hi, objective third party here.   Errors and unplanned occurrences often result from a cascade of events- not merely the *last* event.   It behooves us to seek the inception, else symptoms are chased without ever addressing the underlying issue- which will continue to promulgate problems.

"I am not using most of what the Learn section talks about.  I am working with sheet metal. That is a very limited application of Fusion. I found the chapters that talked about what I am doing and explored those. I have not watched everything, and I have not used the Assembly menu option at all."

---

Imagine picking up a new wood working tool for the first time, saying "I'm going to build a fine violin today"- then blaming the tool for a lack of expertise.    When others respond to calls for help, blame the charitable for not providing aid on the ill considered terms ignorance recommends.

The impetus to create is what motivates us all.   It's admirable.   Ignorance is a natural state of any neophyte- it's where we all, to some extent, start.   Wanting to  escape ignorance is admirable- but experience can not be cheated.   Wanting to create NOW is understandable- but experience can not be cheated.

Needing help is common.   Dictating the terms of that help to those who have gone before is unwise.   Dispensing with advice is unwise.   Attempting to cheat experience is unwise.

The genitive problem here, seems to me, is eagerness- compounded by impatience, unrealistic expectations, and, perhaps more than all else, hubris.

How to do _______ starts with learning the basics.   Most end up here, like me, on the way to making something.   The impulse to work on that thing while learning how to use the tool is no stranger to me- I'm as guilty as any other.   I reckon humility, gratitude, respect, and patience would serve any in my position.

Message 55 of 65

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

Here is a screencast that aims to explain how to edit dimensions.

 

 

 

 


EESignature

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Message 56 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Well, I didn't know about the Shell function, that is for sure.  Thanks.

I needed to test the values of the drawing/component.  So I used the dimension tool.  I started out with a single Sketch with all the angles on it.  Then I push/pulled the area that I needed for thickness.  Then I used the Offset function to define a parameter.  Then I negative extruded the center part of the plate using Push/Pull again.  This gave me the same result as the Shell function.  

 

What I ran into is a change in design guidelines, which I just learned about, that called for a 0.020" difference in the long dimension.  I could go back and redraw the plate, but say this was a more complicated plate with lots of holes and slots that you had put there already.  For such a small change, I mean .02" distributed over almost 17" it amounts to 0.0011" reduction per 1 inch of material.  You would need a light section microscope to even measure that amount of change in a plate.  It would be nice to just change the entire component by -0.02 somehow without needing to go through the steps used to get to that final point when you learned about the .02" requirement.   Is there a SHRINK tool in Fusion 360? 

 

This kind of thing is sometimes called a mid flight correction. Where you don't have to return to the airfield and start over again.  Things happen in life. People change their minds.  There must be a way to just shrink the component slightly.  

 

And, it is true, "I am not using most of what the Learning section talks about".  My application is very simple.  This program does a lot.  

 

   

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Message 57 of 65

JDMather
Consultant
Consultant

@CLmoss wrote:

....  There must be a way to just shrink the component slightly. 


You can simply edit parametric dimensions.

Driving dimensions control the geometry.

Driven (reference) dimensions are controlled by the geometry.

 Turn on your sound -

 Click on double arrow in lower right corner for full screen video. 

 

 
Flat Pattern.png
 
Chamfers added to flanges to allow unfolding.
I did not take the time to add flange tabs for spot welding (if required).
 
Fusion.f3d file attached - download and then File>New Design from File.
The step-by-step technique is recorded in the timeline.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autodesk Inventor 2019 Certified Professional
Autodesk AutoCAD 2013 Certified Professional
Certified SolidWorks Professional


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Message 58 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

J D Mather,

that is a great screencast.  That helps a lot.  I am not sure how putting the origin of the sketch in the middle of the top side helps in anyway though.  Wouldn't you be able to adjust the sketch if you didn't?  I generally try to put the origin off to one side.  Like an X/Y/Z graph.  I try to pick an area on a plane that has all positive numbers and stay there.  Habit I guess. Maybe you could expand on the reason for your placement of the origin.  

 

One thing is, the sheet metal shop who I will be working with said this,

"As for what we will need to make parts, we prefer the 3 view orthographic file, either .dxf or ‘dwg format.  Don’t even bother with the unfolding, it’s never correct".

Right or wrong, that is what he said and what he wants.

So I am making drawings of the finished parts and assembly. 

 

One more thing, before you posted this, I tried to go back in my timeline and make changes to the original Sketch of the outline and cut-aways.  I could do that.  I could make the changes to the sketch which was very cool, but after I did that the rest of the timeline was browned out. I could not use the downstream steps in the timeline anymore.  What's with that?  I just closed without saving. 

 

Your video helps with a couple of issues I will face in future projects too.  Thanks!

By the way, I see in the March 23, 2017 Update – What’s New, that you got a mention for finding a bug. Right On!

It said, "J D Mather reported some sketch solver wonkiness where if you wanted to dimension a sketch line constrained with symmetrical and coincident constraints, Fusion 360 gave you an error message saying that the sketch entities could not be dimensioned. We dug into this and found some weirdness around how our sketch solver interacted with constraints. Our bad – this is now fixed."

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Message 59 of 65

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

@CLmoss wrote:

 

 

One more thing, before you posted this, I tried to go back in my timeline and make changes to the original Sketch of the outline and cut-aways.  I could do that.  I could make the changes to the sketch  which was very cool, but after I did the rest of the timeline was browned out. I could not use the downstream steps in the timeline anymore.  What's with that?  I just closed without saving. 

 

 


 

 

You don't need to roll back the timeline manually  to edit a sketch. When editing a sketch the timeline rolls back automatically to the point in time when that sketch was first created. When you click "Stop sketch" the timeline marker goes back to its previous position in the timeline.

If you manually roll back the timeline marker, you'll have to move it forward manually.

 

You can only edit items in the timeline that are in the active area of the timeline or to the left of the timeline marker.


EESignature

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Message 60 of 65

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Yeah! That worked.  I had not pressed Stop Sketch in the past.  My fault.   OK then! 

So, I will need to place lots of holes and slots in this component, which is linked to a full drawing file with other components.  I guess the best way is to make a copy for backup of this component drawing before adding to it, for future use.  Then make these edits to the single component file that is linked to the full drawing file. This will make updating the components much more reasonable.  The modified component will be part of the full drawing update then.  Right?

 

 

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