Editing Mirrored Components-No Timeline Copied

Editing Mirrored Components-No Timeline Copied

fsonnichsen
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Message 1 of 23

Editing Mirrored Components-No Timeline Copied

fsonnichsen
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I have an object (as we often see) that is composed of two mirrored halves. Each half is nearly identical but with a few changes to each half. 

  I used the Create:Mirror command to make the mirrored copy, and the result only shows a "mirror" icon in the timeline--the timeline is not duplicated. (Thinking about this I would expect the same timeline operations as the original with some items mirrored perhaps.) 

   I need to edit the mirrored half only now and I cannot see how to do this. Typically, I would start this process from the timeline. 

  Am I venturing into something that cannot be done?

Fritz

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Message 2 of 23

davebYYPCU
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Consultant

To edit the "new" component, independent from the original, you will need to 

Copy / Paste New then Joint for the mirror position.

 

Might help....

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Message 3 of 23

TrippyLighting
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Consultant

Mirroring a component does not copy the timeline or the sketches of the original component. That is so by design!

Features added to either component after the mirror feature in the timeline will apply to that component only.

Features added to the original component before the mirror feature in the timeline will also apply to the mirrored componet.

 


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Message 4 of 23

fsonnichsen
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Collaborator

Thanks Dave.

  I show here the copy/paste-new  objects.

But I don't understand how to join them using a mirror---I have one example shown but the object is flipped upside down--

 

Fritz

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Message 5 of 23

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

@fsonnichsen did you read and understand my reply ?


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Message 6 of 23

fsonnichsen
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Collaborator

Sorry for the late reply (and your responses are always appreciated!).

Your comment is understood and  what I am seeing when I test--a mirror image is necessarily associated with its parent up to the point of creation.  That is not what I need however. I need to create a separate-but mirrored- copy of the original with these properties:

1) It appears on the timeline-not as a mirror-but as an object complete with all of the edits in the original so that I can make edits to the copy.

2) No association with the original-editing the original will not change the copy.

 

Thanks

Fritz

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Message 7 of 23

TrippyLighting
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Consultant

@fsonnichsen wrote:

Sorry for the late reply (and your responses are always appreciated!).

Your comment is understood and  what I am seeing when I test--a mirror image is necessarily associated with its parent up to the point of creation.  That is not what I need however. I need to create a separate-but mirrored- copy of the original with these properties:

1) It appears on the timeline-not as a mirror-but as an object complete with all of the edits in the original so that I can make edits to the copy.

2) No association with the original-editing the original will not change the copy.

 

Thanks

Fritz


In that case I would not mirror the component or use copy-paste/new. This does not look like it's going to be an overly complex part, so I would simply "manually" design a mirrored copy and keep main dimensions and features the same with user parameters.

In the end that little bit of extra work will pay off, because it is much easier to understand than some "trick-workflow.

 

Once you are done, please post your result. 


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Message 8 of 23

fsonnichsen
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OK--The part in question is more complex than that (for example see attachment)--but in the forum I usually make comparable examples to keep focus on the problem.

 

  But to my understanding, the bottom line is that Fusion is not capable of mirroring a part with its necessary editing statements--what is called a "mirror" command in fusion is not far removed from just a non-editable static pixel copy.

 

I was interested in Dave's idea but I cannot seem to get it to work-the join does not create a mirror.

 

Thanks Peter

Fritz

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Message 9 of 23

TrippyLighting
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Consultant

@fsonnichsen wrote:

  But to my understanding, the bottom line is that Fusion is not capable of mirroring a part with its necessary editing statements--what is called a "mirror" command in fusion is not far removed from just a non-editable static pixel copy.

 


A component is a collection of those features required to create the solid or surface body of that component. SO far so good

The data for that component exists once. When you create a copy of a component, that is just an instance. The original and the instance are pointing to that same data set. Instancing is a key concept in all of computer graphics and 3D modeling and all CAD systems, not just  Fusion 360.

The effect is that editing an instance is simply the same as editing the original, because you are editing just the one data set. 

When you copy/paste a component a completely new data set is created, requiring additional memory. That is not an instance and can be edited independently. What you want to do is to make a mirror of a component and then edit it independently. 

 

Is there going to be any geometry that will remain common between the original and tee mirrored component ? 


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Message 10 of 23

jeff_strater
Community Manager
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@fsonnichsen wrote:

 

  But to my understanding, the bottom line is that Fusion is not capable of mirroring a part with its necessary editing statements--what is called a "mirror" command in fusion is not far removed from just a non-editable static pixel copy.

To the first part of that statement, the answer is "yes", Fusion is not capable of this kind of mirror.  If you think about it, you should be able to see why, and why (to the best of my knowledge - I could definitely be wrong) no other CAD system does this, either.  Creating a "mirror recipe" for the general case of any component is quite a challenge.  Each sketch would have to be re-created, but in a mirrored orientation.  Each feature would have to be evaluated whether it needs to be mirrored or not (for example, an extrude might have to have its distance negated, or a workplane at angle might have to have a complement angle, but both of these would depend in the geometry orientation with respect to the mirror plane).  As an exercise, try doing it manually - I suspect it would be very difficult, and maybe even more so programmatically.  Not impossible, obviously, but very hard.  While mirroring the "results" (the bodies) is quite simple - a mirror transform can be applied to the geometry.

 

The second part of your statement, in my opinion, is a bit of exaggeration.  Clearly a mirrored body result is much more useful than a pixel copy.  It has mass, it has geometry, that component can be connected to other components with Joints, etc.  All CAD modelers that I am familiar with work basically the same way, so clearly there must be some value in it...


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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Message 11 of 23

fsonnichsen
Collaborator
Collaborator
I am not suggesting and instance here--a "copy/ paste new" for example--is not an instance (to my knowledge) but a completely new object. But the "copy / paste new" does not, of course, mirror the object (unless Dave has figured out a way to do it).

Most of the geometry is common on both sides of the enclosure--just a few changes in some of the port positions. So I really was hoping not to re-draft the whole thing over again. But I can play with with cut and paste etc. if that is necessary.
thanks
fritz
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Message 12 of 23

fsonnichsen
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Collaborator

Thanks Jeff-this confirms my suspicions on both issues. I assume that is why the "mirror" in the selection menu really only mirrors in a reduced way, omitting the actual steps.

  As I mentioned I had thought this over and I think the mechanics of mirroring is deterministic--i.e. each step is governed by the one axis on which the mirror plane exists and is not a judgement --thus a cartesian transform using all 3 axis should yield the mirrored image. But-as you mention-this is not generally (or ever?) found in drawing programs so I assume complications other than the transform result from rendering the result into internal operation statements.

   Thinking a little more--I can see why a simple pixel representation is less useful than a mirror as done in Fusion.

 

That said-I am lucky that most of my designs are fairly simple. Bilateral symmetry seems to pervade a lot of design and I would hate to duplicate some of the designs I have seen.

 

Thanks again

Fritz

 

 

   

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Message 13 of 23

davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

Your simple example may not represent but should represent all examples.

 

Paste New, then Joint them with a mutually common select point.

Your example the centre point of both mirror faces / common edge, / corner etc.

 

Might help.....

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Message 14 of 23

fsonnichsen
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Collaborator
David
the f3d on post #8 shows what must be first mirrored and then edited. The Paste New works of course--but Joint does not seem to product the mirrored symmetry. (I can get and inverted mirror but that is the wrong thing) This reflects the same problem in my simpler example in post #1.

thanks
Fritz
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Message 15 of 23

davebYYPCU
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Consultant
Accepted solution

I take that back, simple demo file does allow my suggestion, to work.

 

Your second example would present a few problems because you have features in that file not symmetric to a mirror plane.  In the second file I presume you will end up with a 4 wall enclosure, but even as a stacked mirror, there are features that would need a mirror. 

 

That said, both files have unusual (head scratching) hierarchy - taking standard answers out the window. 

 

First file no sketches,

Second file has sketches in second and third components that operate on the only body in the whole file.

May I suggest one Component for one real world part.  Multiple sketches and features in that component to make the part, will eliminate your original question.

 

Edit Message 14 was posted while I was typing.

Might help...

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Message 16 of 23

TrippyLighting
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Consultant
Accepted solution

Looking again at your design I think you really don't fully understand the purpose of components in Fusion 360.

There are 4 components in your design, but only one has the component geometry in it. That does not make any sense.

 

This screen recording explains what I think you want to do. If but at least you've learned a few other things that might help you in the future. The HD versions are still converting, so perhaps give it another hour or so.

 

 


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Message 17 of 23

fsonnichsen
Collaborator
Collaborator

A lot said here but I will try to address Dave first:

In my 2nd example perhaps I am not clear--there is no symmetry to a mirror plane in my requirements--the point if to create a symmetry plane and then generate the other half around it.
Regarding the 1st file--since it was a quick example I don't see the need for sketches. Perhaps I have this all wrong, but I thought sketches were helper objects used to position and shape various objects that will be rendered in 3D. I would not think them necessary in a simple case like this? They would just be and extra step in some cases.
Regarding the 2nd file - I have separated sketches into components, partly as a clerical convenience but also so I can treat them separately later if I want to copy, move etc. That said, perhaps they don't need separate components.

I am a little confused with your file showing the mirror-OK up till the final step in the timeline--where did you place the joint markers?

Thanks-
Fritz

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Message 18 of 23

davebYYPCU
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Consultant

Mid point of vertical front edges.  Where the rigid joint icon is.

Not a biggy for the demo,  no sketches is unusual, in a sketch based modeller, those with experience don’t use primitives - even for this simple demo.

 

Combined with the second file, shows a lack of understanding, as Pete puts it.

The responders request the file, let’s us see why standard answers don’t work.

 

Might help....

 

 

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Message 19 of 23

fsonnichsen
Collaborator
Collaborator
Peter
thank you for your exhaustive deliberation (and time) on this problem-I watched it a couple of times. I think the important theme here is to "create a minimal object-mirror it-and then add required features to each half". That works perfectly well and if I can stay awake I will redo all this tonight with that in mind.
I think you (and Dave) had an overall reaction against breaking things into many components and I will keep that in mind in the future. I rather liked thinking of things that way but of course it does complicate things.
Regarding mirroring screw holes----Jeesh! I never even thought of this. I can just see myself twisting away with an Allen wrench wondering "what happened". Thanks for the important tip here.

SO --I will do some redrawing and believe I can move forward from here with some new knowledge.
Cheers
Fritz
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Message 20 of 23

fsonnichsen
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Collaborator
Thanks Dave-I usually use sketches but I guess they are more or less required here.
I agree on the lack of understanding-a long while back I mentioned something about the lack of written documentation on the allocation of sketches, components, joints etc. These are the fundamentals of Fusion and I personally did not find the spotty documentation very thorough.
Not sure what your last comment meant
Fritz
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