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Jacqui51 If you were already a CAD software company this would be very easy. To do it from the ground up would still be pretty costly and time consuming. If you were a rebel ex employee of one of said companies and wanted to make your own company to do this you would have many hurdles and probably not the highest likelyhood of success. If you were anyone else it would really come down to money and a lot of it. The investment required to design and develop a leading edge CAD program would be huge especially if you don't have past experience in that because you would have to build the team that gave you the knowledge and capability and then you would have to hope they worked well together. There have been a couple that failed. They never even got to the point of having a proper marketable product so I suspect the reason for failing was due to lack of money or the team falling apart. Maybe they should have done like F360 and started charging for it when it was still in development.
I think some of you misunderstood my remarks. From day 1 Fusion was about cross platform development. I have the scars to prove it. That has meant rewriting, porting and getting 3D party components ported. It requires agreeing across an ecosystem of tools on compilers and libraries and build tools and so much more. This has been a huge undertaking for our team and we totally believe in cross platform development.
There seems to be an assumption here that this is just easy. I can tell you that some of the platform rebuilding efforts go back 5 and 6 years. The issues with linux remain. The community tends to run low end low graphics hardware... Tends to want free and opensource software... Has a complex 3D graphics system and driver environment... So, getting the code to build on a linux might be straightforward but the overhead to support and maintain it across such a divers system environment is too high today. If we ever did consider this, we would also have to choose a small number of versions and distributions to support. We have limited resources and have to apply those with the best affect to largest number of users.
No one like bad news. Least of all the linux community which has always felt unsupported by commercial software companies, but the simple truth is it just does not make sense to open up this path today. As Fusion zero clients arrive they might be a viable alternative.
Wow for trying to clairfy misunderstood remarks I think you just did a pretty good job of sticking your foot in your mouth. Frankly I am offended and find your opinion of the Linux community increadibly pregiduce and closed minded. Might as well just add that all asians and women are bad drivers, all black people like grape soda, watermelon and fried chicken and that all lesbians are members of the local baseball league. If that is autodesks official view of us lowly mangey linux users not only do I feel obligated to take my business elsewhere but share with the world these fantastic beliefs of yours. I cannot believe you just said that.
Anyone who actually uses Linux for productivity knows just as well as any Windows or Mac user the importance of running quality hardware. Your preconcieved notion of the Linux community is a small subset of people who have installed Linux on older machines because it enables them to still use that machine for whatever basic purpose they have without bogging it down with Windows bloatware. These are not the people who are going to be looking to use Linux for 3D CAD design. You think all the people who use Blender for 3D animation just go pull some 20 year old computer out of the dump, install Linux and try to start designing away? Rediculously offensive.
God I really didn't want to have to go try to find a new CAD program.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your remarks, but even your last post sounded like:
1) We put a lot of effort into cross platfoirm development... for Windows and Mac.
You do realize that Linix is a platform, right?
2) We won't offer a Linux version because Linux users don't buy our Linux CAD software... that we've never offered for sale.
Ever heard of a chicken or egg argument?
3) Linux users want free software to run on their antiquated hardware.
Yes, some Linux users do enjoy being able to run Linux on minimal hardware, but that's completely irrelevant to this discussion because that's not the customer who wants to run CAD. Many Linux users are power users with screaming computers. Many of these Linux users have no commercial Linux CAD option and are currently forced to buy a powerful computer that can run Windows and commercial CAD software. Do you honestly believe that person wouldn't be very pleased to buy the same hardware and run Linux and commercial CAD software without rebooting or having a second computer just for CAD? If you don't offer that valuable option to your customers, your competition will. As much as I don't want cloud based CAD software, if that's the only option I have for good commercial CAD I can run under Linux, that's what I'll be forced to do.
4) We don't want to support all of the different graphics cards, etc.
You don't need to do that. Just like Windows, you can specify the system requirements. 16GB of RAM, a 64-bit quad core processor, even ONE SPECIFIC GRAPHICS CARD. If you provided a commercial Linux CAD product, Linux CAD customers would buy the needed hardware. You could eventually support 2-3 of the more popular Linux distributions and 2-3 of the more popular graphics cards that you're already supporting on Windows, at your leisure. If a graphics card company doesn't offer a full set of drivers for Linux, forget them. Let the free market impart that lesson to the graphics card company. Take the easiest path and Linux users will follow.
But it sounds like a bunch of "we don't want to support Linux" followed by some lame rationalizations for that business decision, which is ultimately a self fulfilling prophecy. Commercial software companies can continue to provide no commercial software for Linux and then smugly whine that Linux users don't buy commercial software THAT DOESN'T EXIST.
I assume the Autodesk replies in this thread are representative of the continuing corporate attitude that has consistently refused to provide any commercial Linux software, so I'll stop barking up that tree. I'll stop trying to help you by convincing you to pursue a very technically savvy and completely unserved market that could result in a significant jump in sales in the competitive CAD market. I'll go back to encouraging open source developers who have no financial incentive to develop open source software and looking for commercial software from your competitors while lamenting the perverse irrationality of commercial software developers. I'm a big advocate of free market capitalism, but it pains me to see customers begging to buy software and commercial software companies repeatedly telling them no.
Yep I bought a Quadro 600 graphics card when I started doing CAD because it is better suited to goals of my work desktop. There are Windows and Linux drivers available for it from Nvidia. I agree it's a bunch of weak **** excuses and I really doubt any of them will be as big a hurdle as the fact that Autodesk jumpped in bed with Microsoft and Microsoft has a vested interest in limiting the availability of software to LInux users. Therefore things like directx are not easily available to the linux user although there are great alternatives that would work just as well if you truly had cross platform in mind from the beginning of development.
Good luck providing an answer to this thread. Linux support is like religion with some folks. I hate dual booting as much as the next person, but give up the missionary/evangelism work and move forward.. either install a supported OS or try something else that will work for you. Maybe Onshape? It's the only thing even remotely close to what F360 does.
Schneik since misrepresentated is not a word I am having a hard time trying to even interpret what you are trying to say. Are you saying that you are not properly presenting the views of Autodesk? Or are you saying that we are misinterpreting your obviously offensive view of Linux users?
schneik said: "It's hard to have a constructive discussion when comments are misrepresentated."
Can you point which comments are misrepresentated?
Let's see your comment: "There seems to be an assumption here that this is just easy. I can tell you that some of the platform rebuilding efforts go back 5 and 6 years. The issues with linux remain. The community tends to run low end low graphics hardware... Tends to want free and opensource software... Has a complex 3D graphics system and driver environment... So, getting the code to build on a linux might be straightforward but the overhead to support and maintain it across such a divers system environment is too high today. If we ever did consider this, we would also have to choose a small number of versions and distributions to support. We have limited resources and have to apply those with the best affect to largest number of users."
Where you take assumption Linux community tends to run low end low graphics hardware? Even if that's true, where you take assumption that your potential customers, 3D CAD Linux users who will like to pay for commercial software, are running low end low graphics hardware? Or tends to want free and opensource software? Yes, there are many kind of Linux users. Many wants free and open source software, but many wants professional commercial software. Do not generalize. It's equal if I argue Windows and Mac users just wants only commercial closed source software. That's just stupid.
Complex 3D graphics system? Just recommend commercial drivers (or only NVidia) and maybe two distributions (Versions with long term support)? If it works in other combinations, it's only extra. Where is the problem? There are thousands of Linux distributions, but it doesn't mean you have to certificate all of them for your software. If someone is building professional 3D CAD Linux workstation, they are not using open source drivers in Puppy Linux. Looks like you doesn't have anything experience about Linux systems and you make assumptions based on it.
I am repeating myself, but that's because you just ignored my comment and repeated your earlier comment. Before you blame comments of your customers (and potential ones) as misrepresentated, I think you should check your own text.
Linux users tend to be computer savy and therefore often more realistic and more sensible with their computer needs. Yes we all want FOSS software. If Freecad did everything I needed would I even be here? But it doesn't and a serious CAD designer will understand that and understand that there is value to paid software. Although I am still trying to convince myself there is the value in paying for F360 when there are still so many developmental issues that you see with FOSS software but that's beside the point. If you can reduce these issues and give F360 it's proper value Linux users will be able to see that just as easily. In fact the most offensive part to me is that you differentiate people as "Linux users". I am a Windows user too. Granted only because F360 isn't available on Linux but still the way you present your side is that you would actually think less of me if I were typing this from my Linux install than my Windows install. There are all types of "Linux users" and most of us also use other OSes. Some fall into the categories you describe but many do not. Anyone using Linux commercially or as a business will understand just as well as anyone else what is required to use their hardware and software on a commercial level. Assuming otherwise shows you really have no business having an opinion of us "Linux users".
(I apologize for the spelling mistake, my dyslexia hits me harder every now and then. I fixed the previous post)
Discourse with customers is what helps us understand how to build better software. When I have discussions with other cad users I like to try and first understand the problem, then I try and answer the problem/question directly. So let me back up and say, I understand the comments made here as to the importance and desire for a Linux version. I understand that the users here are savvy and pragmatic Linux users who understand the need for decent distributions and hardware with drivers. I in now way intended to slander anyone.
What we have learned over the last 18 months through our Windows and Mac support is that platform support is much much more than just building a new executable on a new OS. We need to support all users, both those savvy and those non savvy, on their platform. We don't have the luxury to subset and only focus on some. To do Linux right would require us to look at the broader Linux market, engineers and casual users. That broader market, in general can be described in the characteristics I used. There is nothing bad about a great OS that can keep an older laptop or desktop useful. There is nothing bad about having the choice to use opensource software. Would you disagree that these are broad characteristics that attract broader base Linux users? These are of course in addition to the high performance computing, network, security and other professional areas where Linux excels. I only refer to "Linux" users as a group because they are a community that took the time and effort to choose something other that windows/mac. On purpose. They are passionate about that choice. In this way they are different than many windows user. I'm sure I'm offending windows people now.
We would struggle to limit the wide array of environments that people would try to run in. You would not belive some of the environemnts people try and run cad software in. We know, we still get plenty of 32bit widows xp users asking to support Fusion 360. At this point adding a new platform is just not feasible because of the longterm increased community support and hardware testing not (the code). I still have hope that Fusion 360s zero client might satisfy this request. It won't require an install and should run in any webgl enabled browser.
There are going to be times in the idea station where we have to say "No," or "not right now." I'd like to answer these openly. I'll admit the interpretation of my answer here is not how I intended and take responsibility for not expressing myself well. How would you prefer we handle situations where we can't meet every request? It's not because we don't care or because we are stupid and offensive. This forum is meant to be constructive and we take it seriously. I'm left wondering how to engage. If you want to continue a discussion about how I or my team can better handle disappointing answers please do that over email. This thread should stay focused on the Linux support topic. You can reach me at kevin dot schneider at autodesk dot com.
The broader market is irrelevant. If you look at the broader market of the Microsoft operating system it could be argued that almost 0% of them would have any interest in Fusion360. Many of them would have systems that would not handle the program well. Hell even my XPS M1730 has trouble running it. Of course that's why that computer is not my main work computer. Anyway the point is that looking at the broader Linux market is just as irrelevant as looking at the broader MS market. What is important is the engineering and CAD market and these threads have proven that this market does exist and is in demand. One of these Linux threads is in the 40 most requested ideas. Don't look at the general Linux user. Look at the relevant users. There is an actual distro devoted to CAE. http://caelinux.com/CMS/ One of the most lacking aspects is a good but affordable CAD package. It has some very well respected programs for many other aspects though such as fluid dynamics, FAE and lots of other stuff. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuEngineering
Look in the LInux communities and you will find many people, schools and companies use Linux for scientific and engineering purposes. One of the biggest complaints will be a lack of good affordable CAD. Yet you fail to allow yourself to see the market is there. Not only is it already there but if the software were available it would quickly grow. Saying there is no market is a cop out. An excuse to cover up a lack of planning from the beginning.
"We would struggle to limit the wide array of environments that people would try to run in. "
Another complete cop out. First off it would be smart to cover Ubuntu and Fedora. If just those two you would cover the large majority of users. More importantly it covers RPM and DEB installers which means that most likely it will install and work on the vast majority of distros. If it doesn't then too bad. You just say it's tested to operate on those two. Anything more than that is just gravy.
Even if it's only easily accessible on one it's better than nothing. Open foam comes in the repos of one of those and last I tried was a nightmare to compile in the other so if Open foam was a high priority to me I wold install that distro on a computer to keep things easy. You sort of answer your own question mentioning 32 bit XP. It's not like your world is bent over backwards or like you can't offer any Windows option just because you can't offer every Windows option. You cover the most common ones and tell people that they should use those. Say only Nvidia graphics cards are supported. I suspect few will complain. Hell limit it to Quadro and the latest GT cards or something and few would complain. For the ones who do? Too bad. In many of these threads Autodesk has argued that if someone is willing to drop thousands on a CAD program they won't think twice about dropping hundreds on an OS. Well yes that is true if they are forced to do so. The same goes for a graphics card. I will tell you one thing. I will be a lot less irritated if I need to upgrade my graphics card to run my CAD program on Linux than I will be if you tell me I have to switch to Windows just to run said program.
I understand that there are times you will need to say no. The problem arises when your reasons for saying no are all complete BS. You want input on how to make no less disappointing? Give honest explanations like. "Okay we didn't really have cross platform in mind when we created F360. We fkd up and now we are scrambling to try to make something designed for Windows and make it work on Mac and the thought of trying to make it work on a completely foreign and misunderstood OS is too overwhelming right now. Even though Mac is now Unix anyway so I don't really see why this should be so hard.
If you and you being Autodesk, took the time to research Linux, the linux community, the demands of the linux community, the schools, businesses and Corporations that run Linux I am confident you would have a much different opinion and a much different view. Just like every other thread Autodesk fails to address all the legitamate points and continues to spew the same cut and paste responses. Go through all these LInux threads and read about the guy in France who says many companies prefer LInux there and just need software support. Read about the business owners like me who are polled and classified as Windows users because we are forced to run it to use the software we need to run our business. Autodesks view of Linux and it's potential market is that of an ostrich with it's head buried in the sand that continues to have opinions about the world it chooses to avoid.
It is clear that you dislike the logic for our current decision. At this point I can't add more to this discussion.
For others who may read this thread: I'll clarify yoshimitsuspeed's statement "Okay we didn't really have cross platform in mind when we created F360. We <edit> up and now we are scrambling to try to make something designed for Windows and make it work on Mac and the thought of trying to make it work on a completely foreign and misunderstood OS is too overwhelming right now." is a fabrication of his own and is not an honest or accurate representation of our view or facts.
You started out on Windows using Microsoft proprietary software and the program only worked on Windows. Then you had to do a lot of work to get it working for Mac owners. Now you are incapable of adding Linux to the fold. How is that cross platform based? How is that an inaccurate representation? Those are facts.
And once again AD completely ignores all the links and evidence provided showing Linux is used for CAD, CAM, CAE, FEA and everything else under the sun and that the reasons for not considering Linux have no foundation in reality.
I am really enjoying Fusion 360(coming from SolidWorks background), and I think offering it to enthusiasts/small businesses for free is a great idea that benefits both the the consumers and Autodesk.
Currently the only reason I boot Windows is to use powerful CAD programs to design for my own 3D printing projects. It would be convenient(and a distinct advantage over other programs) to have the ability to work in linux as well.
I think linux support would mostly benefit the free licence enthusiasts/ small business user base, so there is not a lot of instant financial benefit for Autodesk, but it would pay off in the long term as the small businesses grow, and enthusiast potentially spread good PR about Fusion to employers.
