two joints moving in sync?

two joints moving in sync?

paul.kaiser
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Message 1 of 15

two joints moving in sync?

paul.kaiser
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

hi, i have one rotating joint (its an excenter) and a second one, which should go up and down together with the changing distance of the excenter. i tried to to it with a contact set, but it only rises the second part higher if the excenter gets in touch, but it doesnt follow back down (zero gravity;-). how can i synchronise these two joints that they follow each other???

 

IMG_2476.png

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Message 2 of 15

jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

@paul.kaiser, the short answer to your question is to use a Rest position on the joint.  This is available on the Edit Joint Limits dialog:

 

Screen Shot 2018-03-19 at 10.30.38 AM.png

 

This acts as kind of a "spring" setting for the joint - it will try to return to this rest position.

 

However, I would caution you against using contact sets for anything beyond a trivial model.  The performance will probably be unacceptable, unfortunately.  If possible, I would use Motion Link to relate the two joints together.  You can usually mimic most simple mechanisms this way.

 

If you want to share your model here, someone will no doubt take a look at it.

 

Jeff


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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Message 3 of 15

paul.kaiser
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Hi, i tried both things:

I can animate the excenter only as long as there is no "rest" checked in the "edit joint limits" box, but then it has no "gravity".

 

the other way i tried was deleting my contact set and doing the animation with two motion links. i managed to simulate a movement that looks kind of realistic, but i only can move the joints manually (as you can see on the video). when i try to animate the joint it seems kind of stuck. sometimes it does very small movements, so it seems that fusion tries to move but somehow it seems that its not possible for fusion to do the animation. i only wonder why it IS possible to move exactly the same joint manually but not via the animation function?

 

 

 

 

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Message 4 of 15

paul.kaiser
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Enthusiast

i made a simplified version of the geometry, there is a copy in the attachment. there is still the same problem, although it is much simpler now. as you can see in this video, it is possible to animate the linked motions manually but not with the "animate motion" function... maybe somebody can check my file? maybe it has something to do with my construction of the excenter? i tried other linked motions in other files and there i had no problems, so its not a very general malfuncion of f360 but something more special inside my file... thanks a lot!

 

btw i deleted the other video from the previous post, its not necessary anymore...

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Message 5 of 15

jeff_strater
Community Manager
Community Manager

@paul.kaiser, thanks for the model and the video.  I suspect that your joint system is correctly set up (at least I could not find a problem with it).  That is a strange result.  I've very often seen cases where Animate Model or Drive Joint works, but component drag does not.  This is the first time I've ever seen a case where the opposite occurs.  I would say that this is a solver bug.  I will report it and have the solver team look into it.  Thanks for the very detailed explanation, this is much appreciated!  Sorry not to have a better answer...

 

Jeff

 


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
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Message 6 of 15

davebYYPCU
Consultant
Consultant

I don't understand why this one is a cylindrical, but changing to revolute breaks the model. 

 

May be something there?

 

MssgJnt.PNG

 

No timeline - I am stuck to test anything before the breakdown.....

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Message 7 of 15

paul.kaiser
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Enthusiast

thank you, jeff,

 

i made another version that you will find in the attachment that works a little bit better. i made some changes, e.g. i made a cutout at the lower part of the excenter column, as you can see on the screenshots below. i wonder if the animation maybe has problems if there occur physical contacts between the moving components? o thought, as long as there is no activated contact set, fusion should ignore that physical behaviour? i am not really shure but i had the impression it was one of the reasons why the animation didnt work. nethertheless there are still strange behaviours and i still cannot get it working in my "real" document. in this newer version here it is possible to animate linked motions when you animate either "Rev76" or "Rev90" (these are the two linked motions). But still it doesn't work if you try to animate M1, although it works if you drive the joint manually. so there is still something buggy there...

 

cutout.png

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Message 8 of 15

paul.kaiser
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Enthusiast

hi davebYYPCU,

 

you are right, that is strange, but i think it is not the main problem. i made a new version, as you can see in my other reply, which has a rotation joint now, but still there are some strange behaviours going on... 

 

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Message 9 of 15

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

Is this the motion you are trying to create ?

I didn't to try to re-create the motion you sketched but simply went by the existing components are arranged in the design.

  • The design as is will NOT create a purely vertical linear motion.  
  • A motion link is unnecessary for that motion.
  • You also have two rigid groups that contain 2 of the components twice.
  • A few joints are missing to create the motion as shown below.
  • You cannot ground an assembly in Fusiosn 360 without rigid grouping the content of that assembly.

 

Exceneter Action.gif

 


EESignature

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Message 10 of 15

paul.kaiser
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi Peter,

 

your animation is not exactly the motion i need. i do not have a problem creation the motion i want , its working as desired. the problem is the ANIMATION of this motion.

You are right, the excenter movement doesnt need a motion link and it doesnt have one. i need the motion link for adding an other linked motion. please take a look at this video, it describes what i mean:

at the beginning of the video you see both the excenter movement AND the linked motion working, when its animated by Rev76. Than you can see that i try to animate it via M1, but this doesnt work. then i turned off the motion link and you can see that the excenter animation still works, and it also works when it is animated via M1. thats what i want, but it should also be possible to link the other motion to the excenter motion, animated via M1 and i wonder why this doesent work?

 

what joints do you think are missing? as you can see in the video it IS working without a linked motion, the only problem is the desired additional linked motion...

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Message 11 of 15

paul.kaiser
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Enthusiast

One general question concerning this topic:

 

why is there a different result between manually rotating a rotation joint and its linked joints manually and animating the same joint via "animate model"? there obviously can be differences between these two cases and when i know why, then i maybe also be able to solve my problem. or is there really a bug in the software as jeff.strater mentioned in his post?

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Message 12 of 15

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

I can get this to work by assembling it slightly differently. Whether that's a bug not I don't know. 

I suppressed a few joints and created new ones.

 

If you animate M1Achse it works.

 

 


EESignature

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Message 13 of 15

paul.kaiser
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi TrippyLighting,

 

thanks a lot, i merged your changes into my overall design and now it works. i still don't exactly understand why it doesen't work the other way, too, but for me its great now:-). nethertheless it would be great if somebody could verify if there is a bug, because i still don't understand the difference between manual and automated motion animation... 

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Message 14 of 15

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

If my reply answered you question, please mark it as a solution.


EESignature

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Message 15 of 15

paul.kaiser
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi TrippyLighting,

 

i didn't mark it as solution so far, because at the moment i think it maybe is only a clever workaround for my personal problem. for the community itself it would be great to know if there is a software bug or not. so maybe we can wait until jeff.strater gets an answer from the solver team?

 

nethertheless i really appreciate your effort a lot 🙂

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