Does V8 support ODB++?

Does V8 support ODB++?

Anonymous
Not applicable
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Message 1 of 13

Does V8 support ODB++?

Anonymous
Not applicable

OK new version is out. Clearly has some shiny new features and a hotly reviled new subscription plan. I haven't downloaded it yet, but I have only one question. Did we get ODB++ yet? People have been asking for YEARS. Eagle joined the consortium! It's basically a repackaging of data that is ALREADY there in the design. Are we there yet? I know you only need Gerbers to get a PCB fabled, but unbeknownst to many is that if you want your board assembled and you don't provide ODB++, you are paying more to most assembly houses to take your data (Gerbers, XY or Centroid file, etc) and process it into files their SMT machines can read. If you give them ODB++, there is no intermediate data manipulation and no up charge. I'm sure this doesn't apply to every SMT house, but most of them prefer ODB++ for that exact reason and you're paying more if you don't give them ODB++. It may just be hidden in the quote or absorbed into some flat rate line item. Even before the subscription model, my plan was to not upgrade until ODB++ is in there. I'm pretty sure an intern could get it done in one summer. It's just a bunch of existing data put into a single file, right?

 

Oh, also, please find a way to combine ULP constructs AND SCR commands into single script files? Another intern's summer project maybe? Everyone seems to like Python, but I thought TCL(Tool Command Language) was the way CAD tools do this.

 

Other than that, I'm still loving Eagle. And I've used both OrCAD and Concept-HDL among others back when I worked for other companies. When you consider those tools cost 4-5 figures PLUS annual maintenance fees of similar magnitude, Eagle is still a great value.

 

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Message 2 of 13

edwin.robledo
Alumni
Alumni

Hi Tek_guy,

Your kind words are greatly appreciated. Those are really good ideas, we tried this awhile ago and the challenge we had with ODB++ is that EAGLE did not collect enough component and board information to generate such a loaded file.   I will mention this to our developers and see if it can be added to the roadmap. 

Best Regards,

Ed

 



Edwin Robledo
Tech Marketing Manager
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Message 3 of 13

john
Community Visitor
Community Visitor

Rats. I was hoping ODB++ was done or close to done already. I was getting ready to re-subscribe, but now I need to think about whether it's time to invest in a more production-oriented software package. Sigh...

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Message 4 of 13

rachaelATWH4
Mentor
Mentor

@edwin.robledo wrote:

Hi Tek_guy,

Your kind words are greatly appreciated. Those are really good ideas, we tried this awhile ago and the challenge we had with ODB++ is that EAGLE did not collect enough component and board information to generate such a loaded file.   I will mention this to our developers and see if it can be added to the roadmap. 

Best Regards,

Ed

 


Hi Ed,

 

I'm a little puzzled by this answer? What additional component information is required that is in the ODB++ and not already available in EAGLE?

 

Many thanks,


Rachael

 

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Message 5 of 13

edwin.robledo
Alumni
Alumni

Hi rachaelATWH4,

Thank you for your participation, this was being tried to be implemented early in EAGLE v7, at the same time Gerber Input was done.  The developer was having trouble because EAGLE file wasn't collecting enough information from the design neither the components, for then a 2 huge columns were being created expecting the user to input what remaining data.  The experience wasn't pleasant,  ODB++ is currently on the roadmap for Autodesk EAGLE.  With the assembled team, I wouldn't be surprised it makes it this year.  

Best Regards,

Ed



Edwin Robledo
Tech Marketing Manager
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Message 6 of 13

rachaelATWH4
Mentor
Mentor

@edwin.robledo wrote:

Hi rachaelATWH4,

Thank you for your participation, this was being tried to be implemented early in EAGLE v7, at the same time Gerber Input was done.  The developer was having trouble because EAGLE file wasn't collecting enough information from the design neither the components, for then a 2 huge columns were being created expecting the user to input what remaining data.  The experience wasn't pleasant,  ODB++ is currently on the roadmap for Autodesk EAGLE.  With the assembled team, I wouldn't be surprised it makes it this year.  

Best Regards,

Ed


Hi Ed,

 

Thanks for the reply, but could you tell me what additional information is required for the ODB++ output that is not already available from within the EAGLE design?

 

Your description of having 2 huge columns for the user to fill in does sound like a terrible user experience, maybe if there is extra stuff that is required then it could be linked in with finally getting ODBC connections set up to work with an external database so that EAGLE can integrate with peoples existing component management systems. That way all the additional information for ODB++ output could be obtained by querying the component management database. Obviously the setup would have to be flexible so people could configure it to work within their existing systems.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rachael

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Message 7 of 13

john
Community Visitor
Community Visitor

Is this just a product requirements issue?

Even if it's ugly or inconvenient, please add the ability to do this SOMEHOW. It can be done in a way that people who don't want or use ODB data aren't burdened by it, even if that means it's a little less elegant for those of us who really need it for production.

If not populated, use default values in ODB++ file (zeroes, blanks).

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Message 8 of 13

Anonymous
Not applicable

ODB support would simply be another export option in the CAM tool once it is implemented. It would never burden users who do not need it. You'd still be able to export Gerbers, postscript files, and the like. I'm just curious to know what two columns of data elements were missing in their current efforts. It's clear that ODB may require the user to ensure that their library components have certain data attributes present in order to provide a valid database. I'm certain that many, MANY, components in the various included and shared libraries(including schematicpal.com) don't have the proper IPC standard origin and rotation set. I'm still scrubbing my custom built library to match the IPC doc in anticipation of ODB++ support. Otherwise you'll again have to pay to have the assembly house fix your bad data, or the pick and place machine will create a nightmare! Exploding Diodes anyone? 😉

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Message 9 of 13

tancho_koi
Observer
Observer

Hi,

 

I also requested ODB++ before at eagle.

ODB++ is already different from all packages. As I see many ODB++ files I have already seen a lot of different versions.

Some have component information, many have not.
Some have a netlist, but not all the ODB version  have it. And after importing the ODB++ it in the CAM software there are still a lot of netlist "errors" because most software short GNDA and GNDB.

 

Eagle uses so many layers for information, and users can choose what layers they use,  that it could be very helpful to start making 1 export script for all types of boards.

 

I think Eagle should clean-up the files first. Now I see 4 layer boards on layer numbers 1,2,3,16 or 1,2,15,16. This means that we need many different CAM files to export these different BRD files.

 

Best regards
Gerard

 

 

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Message 10 of 13

Anonymous
Not applicable

I'd like to caution against falling into the common misconception about Design files vs CAM files. Eagle gives us a rich layering environment on the design files to give designers the flexibility to use them as they see fit. Because of widespread use of the tool, there has been some standardization of the layers beyond the copper and unrouted layers and as with any tool, if you are sharing designs, you'll have to agree on layer numbering. If you are taking open source and other "free" signs off the net, then it is up to you to make them fit your layering scheme. For 4-layer boards, I personally follow the 1,7,8,16 numbering scheme as that allows me to add additional signal layer pairs as needed, while keeping the ground/power layers in the core of the board where often times different weight copper or stackup is desired. It is not up to Eagle, nor would it be popular to take that flexibility away.

 

However, once you process with CAM, the notion of layers and nets goes away. Just as the design tool is an aid in creating your design, the CAM files aid various machinery in manufacturing that design. The CAM processor takes all of the layers you have chosen for a specific gerber/drill/etc file and "flatten" them into a single file describing aperture shapes and X,Y movements which is how photo plotters traditionally created the masks for board fab layers. The CAM generated files know nothing of your netlist, so if GNDA and GNDB are shorting together, it's because they physically overlapped on layers that were chosen for a single gerber file. You could even(and some do) include one of your silkscreen eagle "layers" in a gerber board layer and everything that would have been silkscreen would be in copper. If the SS overlaps the traces once flattened by the CAM processor, they conceptually become part of the net they overlap with and could potentially short to other nets, of course.

 

As far as different ODB++ "formats". ODB is not a simple file, even though it is contained in a single entity on your computer's file system. The DB in ODB stands for "Database". In other words, ODB contains a database of the equivalent contents of many files, including gerbers for all of your layers, and component position, rotation, z-height and other information needed for both PCB FAB as well as automated component placement and assembly(SMT). Gerbers are enough to make a bare board fab, but the pick and place machines need more info, for example to know how to properly orientate a diode so it's not backwards. Although ODB++ is standardized, I'm sure just like our gerber CAM processor, you can pick and choose which types of info you want included in the database. For someone simply ordering board fabs, they may just use ODB as a convenient way to have all of their gerbers + drill info in a single "file", similar to zipping, except the ODB also contains context that the machines comprehend, so they know a copper layer from a silk screen or mask.

 

Note that extended gerber(GerbX) is already a move in the database direction. The old "standard" gerber format(GerbD) required a separate file to describe all of the "Apertures" used in the separate gerber files. Apertures are sort of like the "Pen Shape" in a vector based art drawing program. That's why when you draw a line in Eagle with a non-zero width, it is actually 1*Width longer than specified, because the length is from the center of the apertures, which in most cases is a circular "pen" of radius = width/2.

 

Anyway, my conclusion, and many may disagree, is that there is nothing wrong with the existing Eagle layering system or the current CAM processing, other than the need to add the requested ODB++ capability. The dialog box for this would not be trivial as all of the information in the various gerber tabs would need to be entered, plus checkboxes for other info to include in the database such as centroid/rotation info.

 

Also note, that if ODB support is added, you'll all need to check your libraries to make sure they are IPC compliant, or you'll get complaints from the assembly house. Many and even most "Free" symbols I have found are not in the proper rotation, pin one marking, required by IPC. Even symbols that look correct may be wrong as you cant simply select group and rotate the group of pads to look correct. The symbol needs to look IPC correct with all of it's SMD pads showing as 0-deg rotation as shown by the info tool.

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Message 11 of 13

tancho_koi
Observer
Observer
@Anonymous

This is what I also like of the Eagle software. It is so open and friendly
in using.

Today I used the MAKE function and found out that it was not exactly what I
wanted to see.
I use a separate layer with extra information for the silkscreen and I got
the normal silkscreen.

Maybe I am doing something wrong. I am back to exporting the extended
gerber files by myself.
I think it would be a great option to configure the extra used layers in
Eagle and mark them for export while you are designing.

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Message 12 of 13

Anonymous
Not applicable

EAGLE_Import.JPGHi,

 

There is a new version of CAM PCB-Investigator V9 which supports EAGLE XML import to convert it direct to ODB++ and many other Formats.

 

https://www.pcb-investigator.com/

 

 

 

Best Regards, 

Günther

Message 13 of 13

loren.guerrieroNJ8DX
Autodesk
Autodesk
Accepted solution

Hi @Anonymous & others in this thread - 

 

Great news! The latest version of Fusion Electronics released August 2021 (V2.0.10811) has added this functionality. Look for it in the manufacturing tab in 2D PCB Design.

lorenguerrieroNJ8DX_0-1630523662903.png

Read more here: https://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/blog/august-2021-product-update-whats-new/#Electronics