Learning Fusion is like riding a bike backwards

[Anonymous]

I realize now that I have a lot of issues with Fusion 360. But in reality, I'm a very capable student that could have likely learned this software in one or two months. After 6 months of struggling, it came to me! Fusion is missing instructions. Yes, there are videos that kind of show this or that, but these are not instructions. Videos are examples of applications. What I'm asking for is instructions.

Written explanation of program functions is obviously underrated around here as one user gave me some definitions of CAM buttons and told me his information was worth $100. If that is true, then documentation on all of Fusion 360's functions would likely be worth $100,000.

Why do developers assume everyone will "mess around" with their software until they "figure it out"? What happened to a list of functions with clearly defined explanations, applications and considerations? I've spent two full weeks (around 140 hours) working with Fusion CAM and this stuff isn't as simple as you guys assume. Yes, I can make it work, but do you know what 140 hours is worth to me? More than "kind of" learning how to "barely" process one program in CAM.

The fact is that MANY OF US have had a GREAT DEAL OF EXPERIENCE with other CAD/CAM systems. And we do things the way we were taught. If you want us to accept your new way of doing things, then at least give us the tools (in the form of useful information) to succeed. Many of us wear many hats and we're not in the business of sitting at a computer all day long.

In my world, a typical week involves napkin sketching, CAD design, CAM design, manual and cnc machinery fixture designing/building, machinery setup, machinery maintenance and repair, CNC machining on VMCs, lathes and mill/turn centers, manual machining, metal fabrication, metal forming, welding, grinding, soldering, lapidary work, stone setting, jeweling, hand engraving, hand metal carving, mechanical and hand finishing, product assembly and testing, consulting with prospective and existing clients, performing musical instruments professionally in classical, jazz, rock and other settings, teaching the physics of brass playing, private music lessons to professional musicians, measuring finished musical instrument characteristics including spectrum analysis, anti-nodal mapping and amplitude, impedance, intonation, intonation tendencies, tonal color, flexibility, slotting, accuracy and lecturing on brass instrument design and performance at the University level, research and development on new musical instrument designs, consulting with other companies on new inventions and products, manufacturing of other company's products, etc.

My point? I don't program CAD/CAM software for a living!

Yet the expectation is that I should grasp and embrace every little "right click, swipe down-over-then-left after disabling constraints on the end point" that software engineers think is useful. The simple truth is that those functions are not useful if they impede the learning process preventing one from understanding how and why we're clicking here and there in the first place.

Yes, it does look easy when an Autodesk employee breezes through lots of functions quickly to create something cool. But I need to make very specific product designs and I'm not going to sit in a chair for the next year learning what comes easy to your team of developers. 

Why? Because it takes too long to remove intuition from my habits. Unlearning intuition is unintuitive. There, I said it. 

Intuition should drive the process and intuition is what is missing here. Software developers don't see this because they are software developers.

One of my professions is Musician. As an accomplished musician, I can easily play in any major or minor key. Playing everything in F# Major just because it seems intuitive to me is the equivalent of the bias I am experiencing with Fusion. It is geared towards professional programmers. But it doesn't need to be this way. I could call tunes in the key of C and more people could play along with me. But in Fusion, everything is in a key with 7 sharps or flats. 

If you truly want to innovate amazing solutions in your industry, you first need to work with your audience/users. I'm not asking anyone to re-design Fusion. Just teach me how to play in your version of F# Major. Give me the tools. Give me the information. Define functions in a way that a regular person can easily understand. Publish lists of functions and definitions that can be printed and referenced while working within the software.

Publish step by step work flow so we can see what works and why. Explain the why.

The pop-up explanations rarely work for me for two reasons 1) they don't always pop up due to hiccups in the system (often they flash for a micro-second and disappear) and 2) they are often abbreviated and filled with assumptions.

Explain every little thing and people will learn. And by people, I mean all people interested in your products. It's the year 2015 and it is clearly evident that 4-year college degrees are no longer necessary to learn CAD/CAM systems. But is that true of Fusion 360? Right now, I'm feeling like school may be the only option. Yet I can design very well in other CAD systems that I learned on the side of my varied careers.

If you are listening, give us the tools to be successful within your platform.

[PhilProcarioJr]

I am currently putting together tutorials that I will put up on my website to help users new to Fusion 360. The video tutorials online right now could be a lot better...I completely agree.

Although I am glad they exist they do little to teach design intent and in any CAD software design intent is 90% of the battle. I say this because you have to completely understand how the software works in order to plan good design intent.

What is really needed is complete start to finish projects that show different ways to the end goal and the outcome of different design choices, because the way you model and the steps you take DO matter.

People should know when you do something this way and why, then when it should be done differently and why.

Only complete projects done and explained in different ways can do this.

Fusion 360 Team needs dedicated employees creating complete project tutorials.

[kb9ydn]

Tutorials are good for explaining more complex ideas like design intent, but there is something much more fundamental missing; that is basic textual help files.  Videos are great and have their place but they are no substitue for searchable text with pictures.  I can't quickly scan though a video to find the information I need.  It just takes too long.  Tool tips are good but those are just quick reminders for what a button does.  WE NEED BASIC HELP FILES!

C|

[Phil.E]

Thanks for the feedback! Although, after reading this post, I'm a bit at a loss for grasping what learning materials you actually have used. There are in product tutorials, many videos on youtube, the forum itself, and the Help site. Nobody has written a book that I can find. 

We obviously need more learning materials, you make a great case. Can you take another moment and help uss understand where these things fall down.

Let's start here:

Have you seen the Help section?

• http://fusion360.autodesk.com/learning/index.html
• Perhaps you could point out some specific places where there isn't enough information.

Thanks,

[Zephyr958]

Like you I am trying to learn Fusion 360, following the tutorials are not easy, it seems the instructors are more trying to impress you with their agility to move from tool to tool instead of teaching with precise step by step instructions. I would like to see a project from beginning to end in ten precise lessons than an hour of speed. I think fusion 360 is an amazing program and AUTODESK would do good to have their instructors follow the format use by the instructor, tutor4u, at www.LittleWebHut.com. They should hire this guy, look at the examples to learn blender, a very complicated program.

[rbtyod]

Phil.E, I would be very happy to help you understand where Fusion learning materials can be improved.

I believe I've read most of the introductory materials available on the web.

Here are my observations:

1. The best learning material I've found has been the series of PDF's. Although I found several errors in them, going through them step by step got me started fairly quickly with Fusion. They should be updated and expanded to include more advanced material.

2. The wordless videos are virtually useless because they invariably go too fast and lack context.

3. What in blue blazes do ALL the icons mean? Even now I see a new one pop up and scratch my head.

4. Many of the "manual" references have "gutless" entries that just repeat the name of the command or give trivial, incomplete information.

5. The box cutter example is good as far as it goes but what would be the most interesting part - the design of the blade holder including tolerances - is not touched.

6. Many of the tutorials and especially the videos are useless for reference because they are too long and the videos usually go much too fast.

7. Small, focused, examples and "homework" problems with both hints and answers would help drive concepts home.

8. A discussion of how Fusion entities are meant to be used to organize real projects in various application areas is completely lacking.

I believe that the Fusion team in located in the Portland, OR area - so am I. I am retired and have the time to come to your location to help if you like.

Email me if you want.

...Bob

[PhilProcarioJr]

The help section doesn't address one of the biggest problems for new people. Its laid out text based but when you dig in it leads to one of two things: A Video or Very basic info.

As was already said here not everyone has time to sift through a video for a specific/simple answer. For instance if I need to know what a setting in a tool does I don't always have time to watch a 20 min video for an answer that could be searchable in a text with pictures document. If I'm working through a tutorial your team zips through the tools, not everyone can watch it once and retain everything they need to complete the tutorial, and if you are forced to watch the same tutorials over and over its tedious. The biggest thing I see your team doing is using shortcuts for everything, to anyone that doesn't know or feel comfortable with shortcuts they get lost because stuff happens in the video that they have no idea what the instructor did. When my son was learning 3d modeling and was forced to watch video tutorials he developed a hatred for them and to this day if he has to watch a tutorial to learn something he just wont do it. Comprehensive text documentation with images is a must if you want new people to get comfortable fast with your software. I have seen many people post on these forums that the way Fusion does things is a new way of thinking and none of us are against that but we have to know the how and why because everything we have been taught to do in other parametric modeling packages is done differently in Fusion. Fusion employees need to think like a novice, and not an engineer that's involved with Fusion as a developer. Just my 2 cents.

[Phil.E]

This is great! Please keep it coming.

Just a few thoughts I'm having about the conversation. I don't know how many of you have actually taught CAD, but I do. In addition to my QA work for Fusion 360, I also teach Autodesk Inventor at the local community college. I've been doing so for 8 years and have trained hundreds of different people. Different is the key word there. From high school grads to retired mechanical engineers, from working machinists to garage hobbyists, and everyone in between. Several local companies insist that I provide the training for their designers, machinists, drafters and engineers.

Guess what, I don't use a book. I make a recommendation, that is all. Nobody reads or uses the book except older students. There is simply no point in forcing 18 out of 20 students to buy a text book they will never ever crack open no matter what I ask of them. The key difference is I get to spend 80 hours with them explaining, demonstrating, answering questions, and making them do the assignments that I know lead them to learn Inventor, not just "use" it.

Yes, Fusion needs a book. Autodesk is not likely to write that book. We just don't do that. I can't find one on Amazon either.

But what about a class? Would you pay $600 for 40 hours of face time with me at Portland Community College? That is one term of instruction, 4 hours a week. Resellers charge up to $1600 for the same amount of training. I'm just curious, because that is how professional training currently works for CAD programs.

Anyway, I'm not saying you are wrong, quite the opposite. I am also saying that you are you, not everyone is like you or learns like you. What we need to do is reach every one of you with the materials or training you actually need. This may not be possible for us to do, such as in the case of a book. This is however a great conversation and I would encourage all of you to explain what you need in clear terms and give specific examples*. We are listening.

*I'm especially interested in some more details about the tutorials.

Thanks so much for contributing.

Regards,

[fishtruk]

I found a video of how to ride a bike backwards. Thanks!

[Phil.E]

@fishtruk

Please post a link! 🙂

[kb9ydn]

A book might be useful for something to sit down and browse through in your spare time, but it's not really taking advantage of two things that computers do extremely well, searchability and quick accessibility.  For me what is the most useful is to be able to pull up specific detailed information about a command, directly from the command.  Interestingly, Fusion does have this but I never even noticed it until yesterday.

The idea of this is great but it's totally not obvious what it is.  How about instead of a tiny black dot, there is a button in the upper right corner that says HELP.  That would make it more visible and actually describe what it is.

When I click the button I get this:

Ok.  It's a bit terse and I would have worded it a bit differently, but it's something.  So lets get more info...

Now first off, this opens in a web browser which I find somewhat annoying.  (IMO) Program help needs to be in a popup window that's inside of the program you're using.  The reason for this is so that you can read the help and look at what you're working on at the same time.  Yes, I know you can make the browser window smaller and bring it over the application window, or even tile them, but it's just not the same as having the help built into the program.  But, it's ok.  Everyone else is doing their help in a web browser these days so I'll get over it.

Anyway, what comes up for the silhouette split command is the help for split body, which is related but not the same thing.  It's also clearly incomplete.  There should be:

- A description of what the command does and where it's typically used

- A description of what each option is and how they are used

- Pictures that help illustrate how the command is used

- A link to a video tutorial or example of the command being used

- A list of related commands or other information

So it looks like the foundations are there, they just need to be filled in with more detail and made more obvious.

C|

[Oceanconcepts]

+1 for increased attention to the text and pictures based documentation- in my opinion, that is best done via online documentation rather than a book, which at the pace of Fusion’s evolution is going to be outmoded way too fast. The basic structure is there in the Learning section, it's just thin and weak. 

I haven’t found Fusion that hard to learn, but I’m not using the CAM module and probably just scratch the surface of what can be done. And the Forum has been a reliable source of help.  I don’t think there is any one size solution for training, but the fact is that many Fusion users are going to be hobbyists, small businesses, startups, or just very busy people who don’t have CAD as a full time focus and aren’t wanting to invest lots of time and money to reach a functional level. 

When I want to understand a new tool or how to perform some specific function with which I am unfamiliar, sifting through videos that may or may not contain relevant information is maddening. I want to being able to rapidly scan or search an organized set of dry, boring, clearly indexed documentation for that exact tidbit of information I’m seeking. Videos are to a great extent back boxes, not indexed, not searchable, and I don’t know up front if they will be worth my time. Even if my answer is in there, I may have to work through quite a bit of stuff I already know to get to it. And some move way too fast for new users, incorporating unexplained shortcuts- like with public speaking, you need to go twice as slow as you think, and provide detailed commentary- not all of the Fusion videos do. 

Don’t get me wrong, there are many really great Fusion videos, particularly around big concept issues. And they can be great ways to illustrate varying workflows and strategies. But I believe the base line documentation, the part that really gets into the weeds of how you hold your hands and what sequence is required to achieve a specific goal, should be built around text and pictures. And I should be able to search and find instructions for every tool function- instructions that aren’t just a restating of the tool label. This should ideally be accessible from within the program as context based help. A useful way to incorporate video might be to link specific video instructions to topics in the text based documentation- narrowly focused, short, highly specific videos. 

I just helped a new user who couldn’t extrude from his sketch because the profile wasn’t closed. A basic issue, but when I look at the current text documentation (as opposed to tutorials) for Fusion sketching, I’m not finding anyplace that the concept of a closed sketch profile is defined or explained. No joy if you look under Extrude for help- the sum total description of profile selection is “enables the selection of sketch profiles”. That’s not much help if you don’t possess a clear concept of what a sketch profile is in Fusion, or how to tell if you have one. How about “Extruding a solid requires the selection of a closed sketch profile, this is indicated by shading in the filled profile. If the profile is not closed, search for gaps in the sketch (video link to or illustration of techniques for finding sketch gaps)”.  I think the basic learning section could use more attention. Search the forum for issues that trip up users, and make sure they are adequately and clearly explained and easy to find. 

[TMC.Engineering]

I agree a manual could be very helpful.

In the late 90s I worked on helping teach SDRC I-DEAS to students at collage and during the summer teaching Ford employees.  The training program took easily $500,000 to create.

The basic program looked like this, IIRC. This covered a semester at school or 4 - 40hr weeks training in the corporate world.

• Part Modeling 1 (sketching, extrude, revolve)
• Part Modeling 2 (sweeps, lofts)
• Assembly's (assembling components, dealing with libraries?)
• Part Modeling 3 (surfacing stuff)

parameters were in there somewhere:)

PM1 was very explicate. (press this button, type this, hit enter, etc)

As you worked through the the classes steps would be more vague. like create a part that looks like this (there would be a picture with dimensions)

The training consisted of

1. Lecture (Demos) - could now be a youtube video
2. Labs (written tutorial) - like what has been requested

Regarding teaching - some people refused to get it (would not let go of the "old" ways ) and some people jump through it.

As for me and fusion 360

I view the parametric side the same as I-DEAS, Pro-E, Alibre/Geomagic, Insert cad name here.  do they do everything the exacted same way? No, but and extrude is an extrude.

The surfacing(sculpt) side is a whole new world for me.  it is both fun and painful - the do videos help, I just necessarily know what I am looking for.

[Oceanconcepts]

Apropos this discussion, I just now tried to look up and quickly find what file types were useable as decals in Fusion. That should be an easy topic to reference- and something someone using the tool would want to know. I couldn’t find any answer at all in help or documentation. The videos that turn up searching for Decal are silent, no text, no description of what is going on. The one with the Arduino board looks as if it might have some interesting ideas, but I can't follow it with a single viewing, and maybe not ever. It's this kind of absence of information that I think becomes very frustrating. Shouldn't a list of image types that can be used be considered basic information to be included in this documentation? 

The documentation gives this- in total: 

Decal dialog box

Sculpt, Model, and Patch Decal

Select Face

Select the face to wrap the decal on.

Select Image

Browse to the image to insert.

Opacity

Set the opacity of the image. This allows objects behind the image to show through.

Chain Faces

Chains tangent faces to wrap the image.

Parent topic: Insert panel

Apply a sticker to a design

Use Decal to apply a sticker-like image to a face.

The Decal tool, unlike the Attached Canvas tool, can place an image on a curved face. Use Decal to add stickers or labels to your design.

1. In the Model workspace, choose Insert Decal.
2. In the Decal dialog, click Select Image, and then specify the file to use as a decal.
3. Use the manipulators or enter values in the Decal dialog to specify the decal's opacity, position, and scale, and to flip it horizontally or vertically.
4. Select Chain Faces to chain tangent faces to wrap the image.

[Anonymous]

Learning and Teaching CAD is a topic very dear to me.

I have been a provider of comprehensive project tutorials for a different CAD system since 2004 (sorry, they are not compatible with Fusion).

What I discovered early in the process was that real world projects, laid out keystroke by keystroke, was what customers have found the most helpful. I write for many industries (mechanical, architectural, woodworking, etc.), so a new user picks one or two that look like something they might do at work (or where their interest lies) and work through them. By the time they have worked through the tutorial(s) they have learned how to set up the program, how to set up their drawing, learned how to create the many parts and the assembly. They have learned how to set up lighting, an environment and much more - all of which is applicable to future work. The full project tutorials range from about 250 pages to some over 400. To date I have written 106 tutorials with a total page count of about 28000. It has been great fun and has helped feed the family over the years.

Once a new user has worked through a tutorial or two I suggest that they grab something around the house or office, take it apart, measure it and reproduce it in the CAD program. The user can then apply what they have learned and look back to the tutorial if they need a refresher on how to approach things.

Although most of my tutorials have been full project tutorials, I have written some that are process/topic specific for things that almost all new users struggle with (understanding planes and coordinate systems, or establishing drawing templates, etc.).

Someone once asked me, what makes a BAD tutorial.

Based on customer feedback and my own experience, less helpful learning aids have been:

• Tutorials that assume the users know more than they do (missing steps in the tutorial). These are real show stoppers at times and users just throw up their hands and move on to something else. Some will try to work it out, but it is difficult if they don't even know what to look for. As a tutorial writer I found that I received fewer and fewer emails from customers requiring additional help to overcome issues as my tutorials became more detailed over the years.

• Tutorials that are too simple and don't really cover enough processes in the program to make learning go smoothly.

• Tutorials that do not have an illustration (or enough illustrations) to go along with the description/explanation. Having both illustration and accurate text helps both types of learners (those that learn best by reading and those that are more the visual learner).

• Videos without audio.

• Videos that move too fast to follow.

• Videos that play music while the tutor explains the steps. The music is usually not the type the viewer enjoys and so it just adds to the stress of learning.

As video gets more and more popular I have had a few customer ask if I will ever get into making videos. At this time, as much as I would like to, I feel it is much too time consuming to make good videos. I do make the odd short video that I include with my tutorial bundles to further illustrate some points so I know what it takes. I sent out a customer survey a number of years ago and asked what they preferred in the way of tutorials. I would say 98% said they preferred the written works (PDF) so they could print it out or use dual screens to work with the tutorial and the CAD program easily. The other 2% said that they preferred video but would really like the tutorial in both formats (written and video). The combo of book and video won't be happening anytime soon. 🙂

So how have I been learning Fusion. Mostly I practice with some of the basic supplied tutorials (I really liked the Audrino Enclosure as it was very well done) and I ask  questions on this forum. What I really want is a full project tutorial that would lead me through a real world project (like the audrino enclosure tutorail -expanded if possible or like the Fusion Glasses tutorial). 

Good tutorials take a huge amount of effort and most people don't want to invest that kind of time. I did because I saw a huge gap in the market that needed filing and I saw the reward from satisfied customers who constantly emailed to say that I took months off their learning curve and that everything they learned was applicable to future work.

Sadly, my tutorial writing has taken a back seat due to lack of time - as my CAD services part of my business has become my prime source of income. 

[daniel_lyall]

the biggest problem is there is no best practise on how to do anything other than how you should start a drawing and name everything, how to do a slot what I did, Why Use Selection Sets, cekuhnen Furniture Design with Fusion tutorial Series, and hole patterning and hole patting with a threaded hole that's about it, I have seen a few tutorials on how to do something but they are not best practise. 

some of the info out there is not right they need to get a lot of the youtube vids removed as they are now wrong and a wast of time and lead you in the wrong direction, as in if you change something in the drawing it full to bits and you have to start again I made that mistake.

there needs to be a best practise section in the forum where people can post how to do something that works and does not require jumping through hoops to get something done at the time they did it, (not tips and tricks) then when and if that practise has become redundant it can be removed. that would save a lot of time and AD can use that to make the AD youtube vids, manuals what ever and if something is on youtube but not in the best practise section people will know it`s out dated. 

thats my bigest grip about fusion you have to find out how to do something by your self most of the time

[cekuhnen]

@daniel_lyall So what is wrong with the furniture videos I made? I am really curious now.

How do you even define best practise. There are many ways how you can do something. And they all can also be right.

Question later is how far do you want your design to be generative and flexible to adjust via parameters.

In my video I also show in general different ideas how to approach a design problem.

[Zephyr958]

Thanks for your commentary, it feels like you’re speaking to me directly, I am a startup; you covered all the things I wanted covered. I learned blender (advance version of sculpt) in about three weeks, because the method the instructor tutor4u at www.LittleWebHut.com includes teaching the software and the project at the same time, with reminders of what to do if you get in trouble, and how to get back to where you were if you get lost. It is more than frustrating to go over and over information that are not relevant to what you want to know. I also learned Vectric Aspire in a short time, and I think it has a lot to with the instructor style and the structure of the lesson. The following video shows some of the function I would like to see included by one of the expert of Fusion 360.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6meF-h2SM

[Phil.E]

@daniel_lyall

There is a forum page for best practices. It's called Post your tips and tutorials.

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/post-your-tips-and-tutorials/bd-p/453

Unfortunately, it seems that the users have been posting bug reports there instead of tips and tutorials. 😞

Thanks,

[TrippyLighting]

While, that is annoying, there is no reason not to move these posts into the correct forum section. Same goes for the idea station.

A little note to the user to read the sticky posts before just posting something would also not hurt 😉