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New Pressure Network Workflow in Civil 3D

New Pressure Network Workflow in Civil 3D

I'm tired of the way Pressure Networks work. They are cumbersome, difficult to lay out, difficult to edit, and difficult all around. Here is what I would like.

 

I would like a pressure pipe to behave similar to the way a featureline works. I draw the pipe in horizontally and then come back and edit it vertically. As I'm laying out this one pipe, I would be able to place angles in the pipe and the network would apply the fitting that most closely matches the angle in the pipe. In other words, if I place an angle in the pipe that is 30 degrees, it should automatically place a 22.5 degree bend. Additionally, it should distribute the error at both ends of the bend instead of just one end. If I adjust the pipe so the angle is now 35 degrees, the 22.5 degree bend should automatically be removed and replaced with a 45 degree bend. If the allowable deflection of the joints are exceeded, a warning of some sort should be displayed in the drawing.

 

If I need to add another pipe branching off this pipe that's already drawn, it should automatically place in the appropriate fitting (tee, cross, wye, etc). If I'm drawing a 6" pipe that's connected to a through 8" pipe, it should automatically place in the 8"x6" tee. If I change the size of the pipe, all fittings and appurtenances that are a part of this pipe should update as well. The way I envision this is that the only time I should ever need to deal with fittings is at the ends of the pipes where I'm connecting into the existing/future/"By others" that I'm not modeling. If I need to change the size of the pipe midstream (not putting in a new pipe), there should be an option to put in a size transition and it would automatically place in the appropriate size reducer. Additionally, this transition point should have an option for where to place the transition vertically, i.e. match crown, center, or invert (provided the appropriate fittings are available in the parts list).

 

Same thing goes for vertical. If I make adjustments to the profile, bends should be automatically added to the network in exactly the same as editing in plan. Following a surface should be seamless and the default. When creating the pipe, it should use the default cover and should follow the surface continuously (not sure about cut lengths being applied, I'll have to consider that one a bit more). If I need a section of the pipe to no longer follow the surface, I would then apply a manual override to that section of the pipe and a distance to transition back to the "Follow Surface" section. Likewise, if I need to alter the bury depth, I would apply that as a new region and provide a transition distance between the two regions.

 

A new command needs to be added to the network "Add Lowering". This lowering would be applied to the pressure network and another pipe. At the crossing, the pressure network would automatically deflect under the reference pipe. The lowering should have options for bends (45 degrees, 90 degrees, sweeps, etc.), depth below the crossing pipe, slope at the crossing (specific slope or match parent pipe), horizontal distance, etc. If the reference pipe changes elevation or location, the lowering should automatically update. If the lowering no longer works, a message should be displayed to the user.

 

 

 

 

32 Comments
JamesMaeding
Advisor

@hencoop

Exactly, make your own bridges if you want to conquer.

We skipped civil3d at my place because long ago we had issues with LDT across a WAN. I made our own alignment and profile tools along with plan and profile labeling. It took me a while to make our own surface tools, but we have them now. The funny thing is, we can run in "use c3d data" mode, or "our own data format" mode, because originally we were just trying to extend LDT. Then when c3d came along, I just updated the routines to read and write c3d data.

Our company would not, and will not run on c3d, as we have too many departments involved on each project, and clients change their minds so much. We can't police everything and C3D connections would break.

What adesk can learn fro our tools is external data is the right way to store things, and that part based tools like pipe networks should be replaced with alignment based tools. This means feature lines, gravity and pressure pipe tools all need to be rewritten. And that will never ever happen, so the world that uses adesk tools for civil is sadly limited on many levels.

TimYarris
Autodesk
Status changed to: Implemented

Hi everyone,

 

In Civil 3D 2021, we implemented a new set of workflows for laying out and editing pressure networks. The new workflows were inspired by Brian’s initial idea, the continued feedback from the others on this thread, and a great deal of customer research. This week we released the Civil 3D 2021.1 Update, which added more enhancements to editing pipe runs and networks in profile.

 

Here are a few videos that demonstrate some of the new workflows in Civil 3D 2021 and 2021.1:

Civil 3D 2021 Pressure Pipe Layout and Editing

Civil 3D 2021 Pressure Pipes in Site Design Workflows

Civil 3D 2021.1 Updates

 

While the new workflows do not address every single wish that was spawned from the initial idea, I’m going to close this one as “Implemented”.  We know there is still more to do on the new pressure network workflows, so I ask that you please continue to log those as distinct ideas.

 

Thank you all for your help with elaborating on this idea!

JamesMaeding
Advisor

@TimYarris 

I watched the videos, and have some comments.

First, I've done projects on all ends of water design spectrum. From small commercial sites where there is no profile, just a note saying 3 ft min cover, all the way to large dia steel pipe for major agencies in southern CA.

Its really simple how design goes - we lay things out horizontally, in pieces.

That means offsetting centerlines, right of way, whatever, in pieces.

We then trim things up and have some continuous polyline.

Yes, many things could be involved to that point, and generally are, but horizontal happens first.

We then start the process of generating the profile, even though surely portions of it were designed in prelim design, or connection points.

When we make our profile, we MAY, or MAY NOT, place vertical bends where horizontal ones are. Its actually something to be avoided in most designs larger than 8 inches, though that can vary. Whatever the case, you will have all kinds of vertical bends where there is no horizontal bend.

Hmm, where have we seen this? I don't know, maybe alignments??

You see, you have the geometry backbone we all want right in front of you, and the poor programmers are like "YES, one more thing to inherit from so we can use our Object oriented skills!"

But no, you invented some other system and are trying to improve it.

Looks great, and clever ideas, but you need to get back to the idea that pipelines are NOT parts. They are the combination of a horizontal and vertical alignment, like a road.

Then make things like structures "ride" them, and even give the ability to edit the profile with them, but the structures are not the profile.

At some point, yes you may have shop drawings that break things down into manufactured segments, but not in design. With steel pipe, they may do all kinds of things as they try to fabricate in the shop, with minimal flanges.

As is, Civil3D has started with the wrong foundation, so all this revision will never work. You need to look at things from the beginning to get it right, and that will mean talking to those allocating resources, saying a bunch more is needed. Do that sooner rather than later as you are spending now and getting deeper into the wrong groove.

Talk around more, I know there are variations on how an alignment controls a pipeline, and they all involve starting with what I said. I'm just the messenger, and did tools that work this way and they really do solve the major problems part based causes. I'll demo them anytime for autodesk, look me up and let's schedule the online meeting.

hencoop
Advisor

I watched the videos.  This is certainly an improvement to what came before.  I'm still much faster with my tools than I could ever be with Autodesk's tools for pressure pipes.  You have addressed some of the vertical alignment issues but it is a rare circumstance where depth of cover is actually constant over any particular range of a pipeline.  There are directional bores, jack and bores, deflection curves (circular) that go under other pipes (rather than using four bends).  The method shown in your video seems to necessitate creating a specific "depth of cover surface" to accomplish the desired vertical design and then set the pipe to follow that surface at a constant depth.  Doing that just shifts the vertical alignment design effort from the pipe to the surface it will follow.

 

It seems that the presenter has never designed a pressure pipeline.  a main valve on both sides of a Fire Hydrant is highly unusual.  Also, setting the MJ bells of the valves flush against a tee is a novice blunder, just saying.  Perhaps if your programmers had more real design experience you would be much more on target the next time you release a much improved product.

 

Even if you got it working how we do it I think I'd be hesitant to employ it simply because of those pesky styles.  Having to remember where the latest and greatest updates and tweaks to the styles are and then importing them to the drawing I need them in is such a constant time consuming process that I dread having to use them.  Don't get me wrong, once they are perfect I usually like them.  It is getting them there that is the problem.

 

I sometimes must use them so I have experienced styles and the burden they are to deal with.  After I have "chosen a small project with a big budget" (Autodesk's advice for learning to use C3D and styles when they were new... [news flash! projects like that DO NOT EXIST!]), then I must wade through styles and try to make them look good like our drawings did before default styles arrived and it just wears me out.  I would spend much of my time just asking others on the forums "How do you... <this or that>".  In that process I discovered that some things simply cannot be done, at least that was the consensus among those in the Knowledge Network regarding doglegs in vertical profile label leaders on manholes.  Stubbornly, I wrestled that particular problem to the ground and beat it into submission myself discovering that it actually could be done!  That speaks well for the enormous flexibility of styles; however, our projects cannot afford to pay for the excessive amount of time it takes to make such discoveries.

 

It looks like you are making progress but you still have some more to do.  I've been waiting for 20-years for a good tool and still the only good tool I see is the one I made for pressure pipes.

 

P.S.  The usual necessity I have for employing C3D tools is when more than a pipeline is being designed but that is not often for me.  If I was working on a site that involved other construction I probably would use C3D piping tools.  They seem to be reasonable tools for more complex site development... in spite of the issues that would otherwise keep me from using them.

 

Now, If you could just get raster (TIFF) prints/plots to recognize the DPI assigned is a scale reference (dots-per-INCH) and apply it then I would know you folks are working to solve some decades old problems.

JamesMaeding
Advisor

@hencoop 

What happened is Autodesk took the old Land Desktop pressure pipeline tool, and tried to update it into Civil3D, and added styles and structures. The only thing they did not realize is that tool was for node to node design, like for HGL calcs and how master water plans are done (WaterCAD...).

It does not matter how far they take it, so long as the underlying data container is the parts.

Its ok if the locations of the parts "inherit" from a horzontal and vertical alignment, and that is what I mean by "ride" in previous comment. In fact, they have to inherit their locations that way, and all they should know is the station of a given point, say the in on a manhole.

Its as darn simple as it ever could be, and is being left on the table for gravity pipes, pressure pipes, martian pipes, and dry utility lines which follow the same rules. Dry utils get more interesting, I know. But the tools I have do both and its no big deal.

Part of the problem is the autodesk team never asked "how can we make a tool which allows easy editing of true horizontal and vertical alignments?"They got a great start with horizontal, but it fell apart with vertical because they assumed it must be a grip that sits at the end of a horizontal segment. Nooooo, a PVI can be anywhere. You let the user add them anywhere, move anywhere, and  don't mix it with horizontal editing.

Then think about possible other editing helps, but never restrict that idea that PVI's are anywhere, and do not define the start or end of anything - a pipe, structure, anything. You separate the structures from geometry.

Its all solved, I don't think adesk will do it with current leadership though. If they don't get it by now, there are some serious restrictions going on and I cannot imagine they are technical problems.

Cadguru42
Advisor

@JamesMaeding has it exactly correct. Autodesk's approach of piping systems being parts instead of systems is what's causing so much frustration. I worked on a very large water and sanitary project for a major airport expansion with tens of thousands of feet of piping using the pipe and pressure network system built into C3D. About half of my time was spent fighting the software to get the output we needed, be it getting the horrible pressure catalog files to even be recognized, naming pipes and structures on a logical basis, adding a fitting and splitting a pipe, getting vertical fittings added, or even getting appurtenances and fittings to show correctly on a profile view. 

 

I don't see Autodesk actually talking with underground utility designers on how they work and what they want as an output. They used to do this in the early days of LDD, but now Autodesk is just a software company that doesn't seem to design their software for the end user's purposes, but for their programmers' & marketers' thoughts. I get that there are many different types of users and requirements, but the basics of design don't vary much even across continents. My personal experience has been everyone starts with a horizontal layout first of something, be it a water line, sewer line, drainage, or a roadway. Roadways have alignments and profiles, which work great for that. The same should have been done for pipes, but for some reason Autodesk focused on the individual parts instead of the design itself. This has led to the majority of design firms that I've dealt with completely ignoring pressure networks and barely using pipe networks. 

JamesMaeding
Advisor

@Cadguru42 

Thx. Its crazy because while other places struggle with util networks, our company actually does them and to more detail than asked for. I regularly take over the dry util modeling for two local companies.

We don't sell our stuff, but all I am saying is it really does work when you do alignment based.

thx

Erich_Raska
Enthusiast

Good lord... The last post was in 2020? 😯

 

Is there an AutoCAD Group that is actually working to improve Civil3D Pressure Pipes at all?

It would be great if we could get .xml exporting capability, and exporting to connector as well?

Is Pressure pipes going to stick around or is there a plan to replace it, I work for a Water Utility and we use it heavily but it does not seem to be getting much attention from AutoCAD at all.

 

Thanks for all the help folks!

JamesMaeding
Advisor

@Erich_Raska 

It really would not matter IMO. Any civil engineering tool where profile grade breaks and plan segment start/ends must coincide, is completely broken from a civil engineering standpoint.

Can you imagine if they treated roads as "road segments"? Everyone would laugh them off the web. Yet we have it for pipes. I saw a recent advertisement from a sanitation district for 3d pipe model standards.

My answer was "What software will you use once you have standards since there are no decent ones out there?" How adesk does not see that road alignments and pipelines/walls/whatever linear thing follow the same rules, is purely due to lack of willingness to redo their tools. They are out of money.

hencoop
Advisor

I've heard that Autodesk has made some significant improvements to Pressure Pipes in C3D 2023.  I have not tried it.  Have any of you tried it?  I still prefer the tools I've developed over the past 30 years.  The work effort to complete a pipeline project is greatly reduced by them for all of our designers.

TimYarris
Autodesk

We absolutely still have a team working on the Civil 3D pressure network layout and editing tools. We've made significant changes in the tools since the 2021 release. If you have ideas beyond what's in the new path-based workflow, please add them as new ideas (as this one has been marked as Implemented).

JamesMaeding
Advisor

@TimYarris 

The problem is you are improving a part based tool, when no one really wants that. They settle for it sometimes, but pipeline designers follow the same rules as road designers, in terms of their alignments and profiles. I've explained this before, but Autodesk continues to see their pipe tools vastly under used, and is leaving so much on the table I wonder if it will be another 20 years before current leaders retire and new people jump in and realize what they are missing. Its too bad, as its simply a matter of deciding to get the foundation right, which adesk already has in their lap, and more since they have an incredible corridor engine. Its all solved technically, but getting adesk to reinvest and do pipes/conduit/walls...whatever, correct is the non-technical challenge that is not being met.

Look up "xyht James Maeding" for my article on this, which is old. I wrote a tool that does what I am talking about and invented nothing. I simply kept to correct civil engineering alignments and the rest takes care of itself, in terms of the creation/editing/sharing questions. We may sell our tools sometime, not yet though but I show them to anyone interested. Its not cold fusion.

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