Who is grading optimization for?

[Anonymous]

Hi

I geniunely wonder who the new grading "optimization" tool in C3D 2022 is for, and what it's intended usage scenario is for?

I agree that the grading tool we have today is buggy and leaves alot to be desired in terms of being able to manage a grading once it's created.

However, having watched some presentations for the new grading optimization tool I cannot see a scenario where i'd want to express my designed slopes as conditions and iterate. If i want a surface to grade 1% in one direction and then connect to EG, what is there to optimize? Mass-balance for housing developement plots perhaps, sure I guess that's the once scenario iteration seems feasible. 

What am I missing? Can you give me more examples related to more traditional Infrastructure design work? Roads and Pipes - is there a usage scenario for these?

[Joe-Bouza]

Good questions.

I'm not well versed in it but seen the coming attractions video. Technologies are ramping up these days and civil work is not being left out of the icon pressing - push pull world we now live in. I agree, other than balancing earth work there are not that many options an engineer has with our type of work. If I need to direct water to the left I would want an optimizer sending it to the right.

[cwr001 · Accepted solution]

Yeah, I don't really understand it either. My guess is that it
a.) Looks cool (which is the main point I guess) and

b.) has some sort of AI-vibe to it which might be good for presentations/sales

I don't do much site design though so I could be wrong and it might be really helpful. But if I know all of my linework and all of my grading restrictions and I'm located in a nice cozy spot without tricky conditions building something completely new from scratch, it can't be too hard to get there with the ever-so-buggy grading tools as well. (A rework of those would be something!)

My main disappointment (that's rooted in my day-to-day work) is that a completely new tool in the newest version in 2021 still only produces top surfaces. No signs of real BIM-workflows to be seen.
The number of projects in my company that require concrete, attributed 3d-volumes that are easily exportable (IFC) has skyrocketed in the last two years from none to two digits and the tools that Civil3d offer are lagging behind big time.

[EBDBC3D]

It is just marketing I think. It's frustrating and somewhat unethical IMO that they would rather add more "features" than fix bugs and functionality that have been plaguing this software since its release. 

[neilyj666]

I've followed the development of this tool through beta and am unconvinced as to useful it'll be in my workflows. There has undoubtedly been a lot of effort put in to it but I can't help wishing this effort had been directed to fixing the current buggy grading tools. The optimiser does look good in the publicity/ marketing materials though and perhaps my opinion will change when I've used it on a live project.

[ralstogj]

I have only briefly looked at myself as well and tend to agree with everyones comments to date. Looks pretty but not of great use to a practicing civil designer.

Much more impressed with the new project assist AI functioning being introduced to Civil Site Design that we use running on top of Civil3d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vly4TvmPlSM

Also disappointed with the ArcGis Connector am currently trying to use to try and lodge our latest as built information with our local council into Arcgis and it is missing half the functions we need like exporting attached propertyset data to mapped GIS attribute fields. Matching C3d object data to GIS existing attribute layers or allowing you to create new attributes that name match the existing council ones. Wasted maybe 3 days and am having to still use the old process using Safes FME and scripts council provide to output the right data from block attributes and some old .net and lisp code written 10 years ago. So much for progress.

Regards

Justin Ralston  

[cwr001]

Yeah, I agree.

Because it was online and open to all, I was able to attend Autodesk University for the first time in my life.

At one of the Infrastructure Keynotes in the beginning, someone (I don't remember who, it's not available anymore) talked about a completed feedback/review-loop saying "We heard you. Loud and clear. No more half-developed features" (I'm paraphrasing).

This made me excited about the 2022 release but as far as I can tell, existing code is barely ever touched again so there's not much to write home about concerning enhancements/fixes of already deployed features.
All in all, I think the 2022 release (Civil3d, Infraworks and Recap) is a pretty weak one.

[fcernst]

I'm watching the latest round of videos given by Charlie and Valentin..

Valentin is shockingly saying Grading Optimization does not have cross slope control for the Sidewalk objects when he was asked by Sayer.

... This is an absolute deal killer for attempting to use this as a professional design tool. They are grading a commercial parking lot and building site with sidewalks all over the place in the demonstration, however no sidewalk cross slope control, which affects grades all over a site.  So it's really just play time now in its current form.

They also really need a built in building envelope grading routine for the building pad object (i.e. first 10' @5%) per IBC/IRC.

[Neilw_05]

The only scenario that I am considering is for a rough grading plan for a conceptual development plan. Right now we are working with a developer who wants to create a large housing development in a hilly terrain. We have a road and lot layout and now we want to get an idea about grades and earthwork.

The project is currently on hold, but once it gets back online I will be looking at this tool in more detail.

[fcernst]

I don’t know how effective it would be at that residential scenario Overlot scenario..at its current state of development.. all their demos are for a commercial lot with a parking lot and a building. 

I would still advise creating a Corridor and running your Overlot assembly down the streets for that application. 

[Neilw_05]

I agree with your comment. I will definitely be doing that, but I want to see what the GO does too.

[fcernst]

I’m going to throw it initially on a landfill closure/rehab upcoming project where runoff needs to keep moving along, no cut greater than 1 foot deep allowed and there are no linear features like sidewalk, roads, gutter, etc. 

See what happens with it. 

[ChrisRS]

I do a lot of 1 acre site grading plans.

Not tremendously complicated, but of course perfectly capable of bringing Civil 3D to its knees when using Grading Objects.

My constraints are finish floor 18" above adjacent natural grade, FF 18" above lot outfall, and 12" above high lot corner, etc. If there is enough slope I will grade the high side down to decrease the amount of fill. In that case the high side needs to be graded to grain. Determining daylight and limit of grading is the major deliverable.
These plans will never balance. It would be nice to easily raise and lower the FF to see how the daylight and raw volume is affected.

Grading Optimization (GO) seems to start with the limits of grading and do not address daylighting.
I do not think that GO is a help to my kind of work.
That is OK. I have heard good things about GO from people I respect. however, I am not hearing much GOod in the forum.

I seem to be stuck with Grading Objects (GO? apparently not - what were they thinking?).

Of course, Grading Objects are known to be  ...   ...   ...   ... fragile.

Seems like a pile of dirt should not be fragile. We can only hope.

Does anyone see how Grading Optimization would be useful for this? I would love to be wrong.

[fcernst]

I want to challenge you to do a test yourself on one of your lots… and report back.. It appears you have your specific criteria defined for input… My hold on this is sidewalk cross slope cannot be controlled as of yet. 

[fcernst]

One thing you will need to learn to achieve the foundation drop to Adjacent Grade is the building pad Reveal setting.. Charlie shows how to use this in the videos to achieve a 4’ loading dock drop.. Just a little tricky maybe 

[fcernst]

One last thing here.. 

In last week’s video seminar John Sayer asked us to send to Charlie anything we are currently working on that they could take a crack at in the next video for us to watch. 

Since you have your lot constraints defined it would be good if you could send him one of your typical lot examples with your constraints and EG surface..

[ChrisRS]

Let's call this a reply to 14, 15, and 16.

Normally I would be up to the challenge.

I will watch the seminars and think about it.

At this point, I do not have the slightest idea how to start.

Again, I am pretty sure that I will have to identify the limits of grading which will presuppose that I know where the daylight is. Maybe I just guess and play around. 

I will submit some data. I have done so before.   ...   ...   ...   (cirkets chirping.) Maybe this time.  

[fcernst]

You know what you’re Grading Limit is..

Can’t grade over on to the next guy’s property… can’t grade into Excel’s overhead power easement, etc.

Constraints..

[fcernst]

The concept of GO is to first set an overall Grading Limit boundary to EG that GO must tie into no matter what… e.g., can’t grade into the Wetland boundary, property boundaries, strict easements, etc. 

Then supply your internal constraints..and THEN see if GO can solve your case.. or Not..

if it can’t Solve your Case meeting your constraints within the Grading Limit it will show you the violations..