Pressure Pipes in 2020, who's using them, and are they worth using?

[claimed4all]

We are currently shifting to C3D 2020 from 2018.  Last I looked at Pressure Pipes, it just didn't seem worth it.

We design private development, with site plans, subdivisions, condos and the like.  Lots of plan and profiles.

We use Pipe Networks for all sanitary and storm sewer layouts and labeling.  Watermain is drawn in plan view with standard lines and blocks.  Then I sketch it into the profile view, by hand.

Would moving to Pressure Pipes be worth the time? 

Whats holding me back:

Plan/Profile View.  We have a a few townships that have a very specific display way they like watermain.  For Example, Hydrants, some citys have a very specific assembly block they want, doesn't matter if we are altering the dimensions, we must use that block, with the Tee/Bend/Valve/Hydrant in the entire assembly.

Another issue is plan view distances.  In real life, the Sleeve/Valve/Tee/Valve will be built in about 8'.  But some townships want each symbol to be so far from the last, thus it needs to show 16' long to get the proper spacing.

Labeling: Watermain Labels are almost all plan view and most agencies want grouped labels.  So one callout for an area of parts.

Profile: does the software do pipe deflections (up to 5% per stick, without a bend) correctly?  Or adding 4-45d bends to clear a gravity pipe?

[Neil.Aryan]

@claimed4all,

I think need to work lot or spend little more time on developing a civil 3d template with respect to object styles and annotation styles.

I have some clients back in Arizona i work with them for subdivision design they have special requirements so i have developed the civil 3d templates for them based on client and city standards and used the same for producing drawings for improvement plan and engineering plans.

Let me know if you want to discuss about this more in detail.

[Joe-Bouza]

My .0.02 cents

alway profile first, and create the PP or GP from profile.

In my opinion the profile is your design to demonstrate conflict free (with real distances)

[Neilw_05]

I'm with Joe. Create alignments for your pipes and use layout profiles for the vertical. That gets you a lot further than doing it all manually. Once you have the top or invert profile design, copy it and raise or lower it the amount of the pipe diameter for the other part of the pipe. For pipe crossings in profile I just create pieces of pressure pipe in plan view and project them to the profile to get them lined up with the layout profiles. They are useful for sewer & Drainage crossings as well. I don't use the fittings at all since they are a nuisance to work with. As for deflections, just apply an angular dimension to the alignment deflection points and tweak them until you get them within a degree or so of a nominal bend. The pipe can usually be deflected at the joints to accommodate the angular tolerance. If you need to show fittings in profile then you can look at projecting blocks onto the profiles.

[Mark_Castle]

My approach is to use pressure pipes for as much as you can without driving yourself crazy, and then supplement with manual methods.

[Anonymous]

C3D 2020

I work at the water utility in a city that has 900 miles of pipe. We use pressure networks exclusively.

You can create just about any kind of label you want, although getting a *grouping* of parts, like for a hydrant lead, would be difficult, if not impossible. Maybe by using stacked labels and position them on top one another with leader turned off. But the fact that the labels are dynamic in case of revisions (the sewers agency is always moving their storm sewers around) is huge. I created a profile label that displays the part name, station and top of pipe elevation since we spec bury depth to top of pipe - again, extremely fast and useful. In the past (microstation/inroads) the stakers would scale everything off a 40 scale sheet to stake it.

Adding the pressure network to the profile view is also very useful. Drawing it in by hand seems absurd now. There are also several profile editing tools that can be useful. However, not everything works - we created a hydrant for the part list that comes in tiny, probably 1/40 of true scale. I got Autodesk involved a few years ago and they dropped it and I never heard back. So if we want to show a hydrant (we don't actually, just the tee to the hydrant lead), we use a block.

In plan view I have, in the template, pipe, fitting and appurtenance styles set up that show our preferred linetype  -----8" WM ------- and the standard symbols for fittings and appurtenances. So you lay it out in plan view plan sheet ready. If there is some crazy editing going on - usually with vertical bends - you can temporarily switch the styles to Standard in order to more easily visualize what is going on, then switch back to the plan sheet styling.

Brief workflow - use construction lines or whatever else you need to locate the system horizontally. If vertical bends are involved (90some% of the time) use a feature line to define top of pipe, drawing elevations from the finish surface less the bury depth, and less an appropriate amount more to create "windows" around storm pipes, etc. Create pressure network from object (the feature line) using the feature line elevations for the top (outside crown) of the pipe. It will correctly orient the vertical bends vertically. After you get the plan layout set, create an alignment over the pipe, add the pressure network to a 1:1 design profile view and examine any crossing pipes to ensure minimum clearances are maintained. Use profile editing tools, like Follow Surface as needed. Draw a profile on the top of pipe of you plan to label T.O.P. elevations in the profile view - the stakers will appreciate it.

Create sheets, add the pressure network to the resultant profiles views, overlay the top of pipe profile and set the band set to show T.O.P. elevations (note, our sheets are water only). Add plan and profile labels.

I also use quantity takeoff manager - the parts catalog is set up with pay item numbers so that the entire system is quantified as it is created. We have placeholder blocks with pay items assigned for things like services, erosion control, trench patch, etc. Virtually every pay item encountered in the installation of water main is accounted for. This is also kind of a big deal.

The Bad - I had to create a parts catalog that includes the stock C3D parts but literally hundreds of additional parts that we use in "the real world" in our system. The catalog has certain fields populated with part names as we want them to appear in the labels, as well as the pay item numbers - again, hundreds of parts have to be created and identified just so.    Working with vertical bends after the fact - sewers adds in a storm crossing, for example - is tedious. You can only use the feature line thing when you initially create the network. After that it gets harder.      There is no ability to place/edit parts by station/offset. So you do a lot "by eye" getting it is as close as you can till, even though you hate it because it should be exactly right on, dang it, you are somewhat content knowing that the contractor is never going to build it that close anyways.

All in all, I would say use it, but as mentioned above, have your template and parts catalog set up correctly and use a design profile view to get everything right before you create sheets. There is a significant up front time investment (winter work), but once you get it done the design should be fairly straightforward using an established workflow.

[Neilw_05]

I'm wondering about your comment to use a featureline to create a network. My understanding is you will get a unique network from the featureline. Also you cannot merge pressure pipe networks. If both are correct then how do you deal with all those networks? You cannot connect parts between networks so you must have a workaround.

[Anonymous]

We use feature lines mainly to get vertical bends in place, which is almost all of our networks since we are urban, have lots of conflicts, and, since we are pressurized, have to be the ones to move our stuff. Even if you have to slide the "window" up/down station in the profile view in case the conflicting crossing pipe is moved, it is a lot easier to have the bends in place, be vertical and be at approximate correct station and grade, rather than have to add them in later (PITA). Sometimes we anticipate a storm crossing and put in a window somewhere around where we think it will be before we even get the storm plans, knowing it is easier to slide the window later, than to create the window new after the network is created..

But, you are correct - you can't add to a pressure network with another feature line, or merge networks. So you get as much of the "main line" settled as much as you can before you draw the feature line. Ideally, if we are rebuilding three blocks of Main Street, I want the horizontal location of all three blocks nailed down before I draw the feature line down the entire length of the street to create the Main Street pressure network.

We do it by streets - ideally, one pressure network per street, named by the street name. We will run the main down the street, define top of pipe with a feature line if there are vertical bends and offsets, then go back and place tees, valves, etc. If it is a hydrant lead or large service requiring a tee, you add onto it and all those additional parts are part of the original street network. When you set a tee or valve you get it close - it breaks into the pipe automatically - then slide it to the "exact" station you want it at. Then add on to it with parts.

We will typically place a tee for intersecting streets as well. This second street gets its own, uniquely (street) named network. And even though the parts are in separate networks, you can connect them - a pipe in network 2 will "connect" to a tee in network 1 - the glyph shows up and bam! got it, connected. This is 2019 & 2020, not sure about previous versions. I don't care about part properties, connections tab, i just want the stuff to draw right in the plan & profile views, and show up in the quantities comps.

Key is making sure you cover as much as you possibly can of an entire network with the feature line before you create the network, at least where vertical bends are going. Feature lines are sometimes also useful after the network creation by projecting them into the profile view as a guide to getting vertical bends in the right place.

[Neilw_05]

Do you use shortcuts for all those networks?

[Anonymous]

Yeah, we share with the sewers and streets (who design the pavement, sidewalks, etc.) folks here at the city. They do much like we do - create designs by the street as far as corridors and pipe networks go. There are lots of shortcuts. You have to have your wits about you, and it really sucks when people start naming things depending on what mood they are in that day instead of following a convention. By the time you add in traffic (pavement marking, signals, signage, etc.) we have a minimum of four agencies coordinating on the same project.

[Neilw_05]

I can imagine how it would be to manage all those shortcuts, especially if they had to be re-mapped after some sort of disruption or change to the file structure.

I did not know about parts being able to connect between networks. Good to know!

[Neil.Aryan]

@claimed4all,

using pressure network on production of plan and profiles is completely worth because as @Mark_Castle shown on sketch its easy to use and show the information and also if we use the pressure network tool we can also do clash detection and analysis in navisworks manage another advantage.

All we need to do is setup the template file first for appearance of water line, fittings and valves. once we have setup we should fine a proper work around to execute the same. i always keep proposed network and existing networks or onsite and off site pipes in different files and also other utilities such as storm drainage, sewer and any other utilities in different file. for final sheet file i use data shortcut methods to show on plan view and profile view and also to annotate the same. for crossing of utilities also it very easy to show them on plan view and profile view.

There are options available to break the pipes, add the pipes, fittings and contention work on profile view and plan view (attached the same) which made designers life easy to work once he/she know how to use.

And also civil 3d comes with default blocks along with the package which looks little odd i work with the city and clients they have their own blocks i use them to show in civil 3d only without any difficulties and also we can create our own sized parts or fittings using catalog editor.

All i can say is using pressure network fr design and drafting is completely worthy but as much as time need to spend for template, catalog development and work around once we have it to go it save lot of time and effort required for edits. developing catalog takes little time but all about to find the best and easy way to create and show them on drawings. i have developed the catalogs, part builders and templates for few clients who do lot of subdivision design projects where use them on improvement plans, paving plans and grading plans.

There are stand alone settings or options available for pressure network to modify at any sage of the project using different options and methods.

[morne.steyn]

Anybody who can help me with labels and bands to display pressure fitting invert elevations, chainage, ground elevations etc? 

[Cadguru42]

---

@morne.steyn wrote:

Anybody who can help me with labels and bands to display pressure fitting invert elevations, chainage, ground elevations etc? 

---

You should probably create a separate post requesting this. With that said, how does a fitting have an invert? If it's a gate valve, wouldn't that "invert" change depending on the specific manufacturer and model?

[morne.steyn]

Thanks for the reply. Ok. Where would it be appropriate to place my inquiry? In connection with the fitting invert, firstly a fitting according to Civil 3D terminology refers to a bend, tee, end cap etc. and as per a pipe the invert will change depending on manufacturers, wall thicknesses, materials etc. The bend will usually be at a PI point in the alignment and as such we will annotate that PI invert on a longsection drawing. I'm having trouble annotating the pressure fitting data on my longsections, hence my inquiry.

[Anonymous]

We give elevations to the top of the pipe around here. I first used an empty (unused) attribute field in the parts catalog to give the distance from the CL of the part (insertion point) to the top of the pipe (1/2 diameter + pipe thickness). Then I wrote an expression that returned the top of pipe elevation. With the expression I created a profile label that gives top of  pipe.

For the profile we draw a profile along the top of pipe, then add this profile to the data band.

[Neil.Aryan]

@morne.steyn 

This video may be helps for you 
https://youtu.be/ueI5gNnQzMs

if not let me know how we can fix this issue.