Issue with Volume in Elevation Table

Anonymous

Issue with Volume in Elevation Table

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi everyone,

 

Please see attached DWG file. As you can see, the volume does not match up with the elevation.  For example the volume between elevation = -0.2m to elevation = 0 is 4,786.70 m3. The 3D surface area for the elevation range is 8,990.75 m2.

Even if we assume that all cut depth for it is 0.2m, then the maximum volume would be 8,990.75*0.2 = 1,798.15 m3 not 4,786.70 m3!!!

Any idea why the shown volume is not in line with what it has to be logically?! Please correct me if I am wrong.

Please note that if you sum all shown volume in the table, it will be 14,935.86 which is exactly the same that you can see in the cut/fill table as per below. Thanks.

 

image.png

 

image.png

 

 

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ChrisRS
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I don't know why you PMed me, but I'll take the challenge!

 

Good question.

This topic does not seem to be very well documented.

It is a good idea to verify that we correctly understand how the software we use works, and that is working properly. 

 

The areas listed in the table are the surface area within each elevation range. It is the area between 2 contours,  not the area within a specific contour. 

For the -0.2 to 0.0 range the green shaded area = 8872.55. This is the area between the -0.2 and 0.0 contours.

image.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To do volume calculations, the areas within contours are more useful.

For the volume between -0.2 and 0.0 can be estimated using:

     the area within the -0.2 contour = 19945 (Red+Red-orange+Orange+Yellow-orange+Yellow) 

     and the area within the 0.0 contour = 28818 (Red+Red-orange+Orange+Yellow-orange+Yellow+Green)

Using the conic method the interval volume = (19945 + 28818 + SQRT(19945*28818))*0.2/3 = 4849

This is in good agreement with the volume of 4786.70 in the table.

 image.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact that the manually computed values are not exact matches to the table values is to be expected. 

 

The table appears to create ad hoc TIN Volume Surfaces for each interval. This accounts for minor variations in the surfaces. This method is more accurate than "end area" estimating methods. I am somewhat surprised that they are this close. 

 

FYI:

image.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck.

Christopher Stevens
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Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you so much for your message.

 

It clarified most of my questions.

 

Just another question; I need to know what is 2D/3D surface area WITHIN (not between) elevation=0 to elevation=-0.2 in the TIN volume surface.

 

In another word, I need to know what will be the total cut area which its depth is <=0.2m.

 

Could you please assist me with that? Many thanks.

 

K1

 

 

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you so much for your message.

 

It clarified most of my questions.

 

Just another question; I need to know what is 2D/3D surface area WITHIN (not between) elevation=0 to elevation=-0.2 in the TIN volume surface.

 

In another word, I need to know what will be the total cut area which its depth is <=0.2m.

 

Could you please assist me with that? Many thanks.

 

K1

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ChrisRS
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I am not sure that I fully understand your question, but I will try to answer.

 

Using your example/table:

The total cut area WITHIN the 0.0 to -0.2 range is 8873 m2 (2D) - the green area

The total cut area BETWEEN the 0.0 contour and the -0.2 contour is also 8873 m2 (2D) - the green area.

I suggest that you ignore the 3D area of Tin Surface volumes.

 

To me being within a range or being between contours is the same thing.

 

Being within a contour is confusing.

I would interpret the cut area within -1.0 to be the sum of the red + red-orange + orange + yellow-orange areas. You start cutting at the highest peaks.

I would interpret the fill area within 1.0 to be the sum of the black + dark-blue + blue + medium-blue areas. You start filling at the lowest holes.

 

Regarding the 2D/3D area issue, refer to the illustration below.

The green area represents the 2D planimetric area. That is the area projected to a flat plane. In you 0.0 --0.2 example the elevation of the plane would be 0.0 feet of cut.

The red area represents the 3D "surface area" of the tin volume surface.* The 3D area reflects the slope and ups and down of the surface. As you see in the cross sections on the left side of the illustrations, the red lines are longer that the green lines, the 3D area will always be larger than the 2D area.

 

* It is important to realize that the slope of a Tin Volume surface is not necessarily representative of the slope of the finished grade surface. I see little use for the 3D area calulations for tin volume surfaces.
With steep slopes of the finished grade, the 2D vs 3D area difference can be substantial. The surface area of a 1:1 slope (100%) is 41% greater that a flat slope. If you are taking off quantities for turf or rip-rap this can be significant. Flater slopes are less critical. The surface area of a 5:1 slope (20%) is 2% greater that a  flat slope. 

 

I hope this answers your questions.

 

image.png

 

Christopher Stevens
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Anonymous
Not applicable

Hello Chris,

 

Thank you for your prompt reply.

 

The purpose of my post from beginning was to calculate the extra cut volume on top of total cut volume(=14,935.86 m3) that we need to do on site for Topsoil.

Topsoil is the cutting whole site regardless if it is cut or fill. Topsoil depth is 0.2m. Assume we need to export whole topsoil from site.

 

My method to calculate extra volume for topsoil is as below. Please advise if it is not correct.

 

To calculate topsoil volume in fill area, I have to multiply 2D total area of fill (=35,915.18) * 0.2m = 7,183.036 m3

So, for the fill area, first we need to cut 7,183.036 m3 which is topsoil and then fill 7,183.036 m3+25635.09m3 = 32,818.126 m3. So, 32818.126 m3 is the total volume of fill without considering any inflation or compaction ratio.

 

With cut area, the total volume of topsoil is 28,818.04*0.2m = 5,763.608 m3. But majority of this volume is already within total cut volume(=14,935.86 m3). No need to add anything for cut area >0.2m depth cut.

But, For the cut area <=0.2m, Am I right to say that the total topsoil volume is 8872.55*0.2 = 1,774.51 m3? 

If yes, this volume (assuming whole area has been cut for 0.2m not less) is less than table volume(=4,786.70m3)!! So, something is wrong. How can I calculate the extra cut volume for topsoil for cut depth<=0.2m?

 

Regardless of my above assumption, could you please help me to find what I need to add to total cut volume (=14,935.86 m3) to make sure that Topsoil volume is allowed for cut depth<=0.2m?

 

Best regards,

 

K1

 

 

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ChrisRS
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I am on deadline so this will be quick.

Your explanation of the fill area methodology seems correct. I did not check the numbers.

 

Regarding the fill areas: 

 0.0 .           .

      \         / Your volume accounts for this area.

-0.2   \_______/

 

 0.0 .          .

     |\        /| You need to account for the approximately 

-0.2 | \      / | triangular areas around the perimeter.

A good approximation is: (2D Area between 0.0 and -0.2) x H / 2

In this case H = (0.0) - (-.02) = 0.2

(reasonableness check: is this a small percentage of the overall cut? if so you are good)

 

A slightly different work flow may be easier to follow and more accurate:

  1. You already have EG and FG.
  2. Create a new surface: CLEAR
    1. Paste EG into CLEAR
    2. Edit Clear to lower 0.2 m
  3. Create a new Tin Volume surface: STRIP
    Base = EG; Comparison = CLEAR;
    Volume = Material to be cleared and hauled out. 
  4. Create a new Tin Volume surface: CUT-FILL
    Base = CLEAR; Comparison = FG;
    Cut Volume = Extra Material to be cut below the cleared top soil.
    Fill Volume = Material to be filled for the cleared top soil up to FG.

 

 

Christopher Stevens
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kostial.mk
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Hello @ChrisRS,

I came across this topic while wondering about the same "inaccuracy" in the elevation table as kkhcivil. I want to confirm, that I understand it right.

What I expected (and I understand kkhcivil expected the same) was the volume for case B in picure bellow, i.e. approximately the area between contours x average elevation of contours. If I understand what you wrote, in the table is really listed the volume of case A, i.e. the volume between two plates with elevations of contours. Correct?

kostialmk_0-1628863892480.png

 

If so, I'd like to ask, if there is an easy way of calculating the volume of case B, without the necessity of slicing the surface manualy and calculating volume of each of those partial surfaces.

 

Thank you in advance!

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ChrisRS
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Yes, the shows "A".

If I understand you illustration, for "B",. you want the ring volume from datum (bottom of Red) to surface (Blue).

It is not simple, nut can be done. Bounding surgacesesurgaces maye work. I haveno time oww, but will check over the weekend.

 

Christopher Stevens
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Anonymous
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My comment on the mismatch of the color area of the layer according to the depth specified in the table with the size of each layer in the Civil 3D

My analysis of this is that; the Volume is correct, but the areas of colors are incorrect according to the actual area that should be displayed (except for the inner color only), as the Civil 3D program reads the color areas, which is naturally visible as a Horizontal Projection, which should be understood as follows:

It is that the inner color is only the color that includes the real area, then the real area of ​​the next color includes (the Area of the same color + the Area of the previous color).

Where all colors cannot be represented on a Horizontal Projection, it must be a three-dimensional projection.

To make sure of this, take color area of last layer by the value next to the color of the penultimate layer, and lower the surface to the required depth you will find that the quantity is exactly the same as the table quantity and you will find also the real area has become logical.

Or in another way, specify in the table only the beginning and end of the required layer depth, and you will find the same result.

And therefore; The problem is that it is difficult to show the required layer color area on a Horizontal Projection and not the problem with the quantities.

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We use AgrantSEM to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by AgrantSEM. Ads are based on both AgrantSEM data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that AgrantSEM has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to AgrantSEM to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. AgrantSEM Privacy Policy
Bidtellect
We use Bidtellect to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bidtellect. Ads are based on both Bidtellect data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bidtellect has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bidtellect to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bidtellect Privacy Policy
Bing
We use Bing to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bing. Ads are based on both Bing data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bing has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bing to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bing Privacy Policy
G2Crowd
We use G2Crowd to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by G2Crowd. Ads are based on both G2Crowd data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that G2Crowd has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to G2Crowd to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. G2Crowd Privacy Policy
NMPI Display
We use NMPI Display to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by NMPI Display. Ads are based on both NMPI Display data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that NMPI Display has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to NMPI Display to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. NMPI Display Privacy Policy
VK
We use VK to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by VK. Ads are based on both VK data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that VK has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to VK to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. VK Privacy Policy
Adobe Target
We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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