Apply Rules Changes Pipe Inverts by 6'+

[Anonymous]

I created a bunch of pipe networks for existing sanitary and storm structures.  As I started adding those networks to my profiles, I realized all the structures had a default sump depth of 2'.  (Who came up with that?)  Not knowing any better (first time doing pipes in C3D - although I've been trying to learn C3D for two years now), I changed the sanitary/storm structure rules to 0 sump depth and removed the rule for pipe drop, then selected all the structures for a given network and clicked Apply Rules, which made me re-select each structure starting from the upstream structure on down.  I did this for a number of networks before realizing C3D was also changing my pipe inverts. See attached pics for one result.

Any idea what is going on? 

[Rant to follow; fellow end-users please skip:  This is beyond frustrating.  It seems Civil 3D is designed to accept changes without confirming all the ripple effects someone at Autodesk thought would make sense to apply to my plans, or this is just bad programming, or a bug in the software, or just too complicated for anyone without a PhD in Autodesk groupthink to figure out?]

[civilman1957]

Good morning,

Not knowing what all the rules you had in force makes it a little difficult to judge this.

For instance, what was the original sump elevation for the two CS's you have noted? What was the pipe drop within the structure originally? And were there any min or max pipe slopes or cover rules, and did you change them as well?

[Anonymous]

Good morning Civilman,

Good questions.  Should have posted that info.  Original sump elevation was controlled by Depth with a default setting of 2.0 feet, which placed each structure sump elevation 2' below lowest connected pipe invert.  The only other structure rule in place was Pipe Drop, which was set to 0.10 feet with a maximum drop of 3'.

It appears the Standard rule set was in effect for pipes, and I didn't change these rules. See settings:

Thanks,

Greg

[Anonymous]

I should have also pointed out that by selecting multiple structures and then selecting Structure Properties to edit sump elevation, C3D selected the pipes connecting those structures as well.  So, even though I only wanted to edit structures, C3D decided to adjust the connected pipes as well (based on current pipe Rules set?), but why would it move a "connected" pipe more than 6' BELOW the structure sump elevation?

[civilman1957]

That makes no sense (no offense, just sayin')

Evidently, your original bottom of structure elevations would be 494.17 and 493.36, bottom to top structures. And now, after changing the sump rule to zero, your bottom of structures el's should be 496.17 and 495.36, with the bottom-most pipe inverts being the same. But the labels for the post change indicate pipe inverts below the bottom of structure in both cases....is that correct, or am I missing something?

[Anonymous]

Those are dynamic labels, so yes, it doesn't make any sense.  Reason for my original post.

[civilman1957 · Accepted solution]

Ah...now that makes perfect sense, for two reasons...

One is the hierarchy of control...that is, structures control pipe networks in the area of X and Y - that is, horizontal location. If you move a structure, all pipes connected to it will follow. In profile view, pipes control the Y - the depth. So, by enacting the rules on the pipes as well, you told the pipes to adjust elevations based on the min and max cover depth you have in the rules - and the structures are forced to follow. I've found that the "pipe cover" rule is quite powerful, and trumps pretty much any other rule.

What you have to do is enact the sump rule on each structure one at a time IN PLAN VIEW, and that will adjust the sump depths on the structures to 0, while preventing the pipes from becoming involved.

[Anonymous]

Thanks.  That works. Below is the Pipe Properties for the pipe in question (original post).  Pipe cover was very shallow.

Probably best to remove all pipe and structure rules when modeling EXISTING pipe networks.  Lesson learned.

[civilman1957]

Glad to help...have a great one...

[civilman1957]

And yes...unless you're sure how all the existing stuff was built, from a record drawing, for instance, you're pretty much left with making no assumptions...