Another Transforming the Coordinate System question

[pkLUQ67]

Hi,

I am having this exact problem as described here: Transforming-the-Coordinate-System-of-a-Drawing-does-not-work-and-an-error-message-appears, but I don't understand the solution that is proposed at the end of the article.

Can someone enlighten me please? I have been searching internet for solution for days now and I can't get my head around it.

I am using AutoCAD Civil 3D 2014. The task is to transform a .dwg file from DenmarkS34-S to ETRS89.UTM-32N (sometimes also the other way around and I run into the same problem). Here's what I do:

1. open drawing A which needs to be transformed, and assign coordinate system to it (DenmarkS34-S), then save and close it.
2. open a new file B (which is empty), assign a coordinate system to it (ETRS89.UTM-32N), then save.
3. still in drawing B I go to Map Explorer tab on Map Task Pane and attach drawing A
4. I define a query: location condition Boundary Type "All"
5. query mode: Draw
6. execute query
7. Then I get a long error log: Can't transform point to Lat Long. Can't transform object. LWPOLYLINE - handle 6808. LINE - handle 6566. DIMENSION - handle 67E7 ...etc etc

I eventually got someone to do the transformation for me in MicroStation, but I am determined to find out where I am making a mistake here...

I have attached the dwg file, if someone feels like looking into it.

Thanks in advance!

[Pointdump]

PK,

I opened your drawing in Civil 3D 2016, and after Step 6 - Execute Query, my drawing hangs and nothing happens. I don't even get your error message. After a few minutes it recovers, but any cursor movement immediately causes a hang again, over and over, until I force quit AutoCAD.

Some observations. The ETRS transformations are wonky. Same for the poor Canadians trying to use their CSRS Reference System. As for that Knowledge Network link, I have NO idea what they are talking about. "Long Notation"?

Some suggestions. See if your drawing is inside the limits of both coordinate systems. And see if you can find a non-ETRS coordinate system to use. (Even if you have to "modify" it)

Dave

[pkLUQ67]

Dave,

Thank you so much for your reply!

Yes, after Execute Query, my drawing does hang for several minutes, but in my machine it ends up with the error message and I can also open an 1200+ pages long error log.

I find it strange that in that error log there is a lot of mentioning of different autocad objects that "cannot be transformed": line, lwpolyline, arc etc. Maybe there can be done something about these objects? Here's what I found from Knowledge Network about objects that can't be queried: Some-entities-can-t-be-queried. There's no cogo points in my drawing though and lines and polylines are normal AutoCad objects... Maybe I will try flatten my drawing one more time and run audit.

I will also look into you suggestions and try them out. Thanks again.

[antoniovinci]

Check the attachment out, sir.

[pkLUQ67]

Amazing! I saw the file name and my jaw dropped

And it's in UTM32, nice. Now, was it done with Civil3D or Microstation?

[antoniovinci]

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pkLUQ67 wrote:

was it done with Civil3D or Microstation?

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Micro... what?? The first one is good, sir.

Moreover, I love "red&white dynamite" since 1992, d'you know what I mean..?

[pkLUQ67]

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@antoniovinci wrote:

Moreover, I love "red&white dynamite" since 1992, d'you know what I mean..?

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Haha, I do know what you mean!

Would you care to reveal the secret behind successfully transforming my file's coordinate system from Sys34 to Utm32 in Civil3D without it crashing or giving an error message? I am dying to find out.

[antoniovinci]

Well, the only secret is... the _ALIGN command, from local coordinates to the right ones, among the following points:

[Pointdump]

Master Antonio,

_ALIGN? That's cheating! Well done, sir!

Dave

[Pointdump]

PK,

I figured out why no transformations are possible from the DenmarkS34-S System. There's no correlation between Lats and Longs and Northings and Eastings:

And look at the Scale Factor -- 59688988013045.6!!! What's up with that?

Dave

[pkLUQ67]

I found out last night that the units in the file was set to "meters", but it was actually drawn in millimeters. (Let me just say, the drawing was not made by me and I also never doubted that the units were set correctly.)

I scaled it all down to meters and the transformation worked!

Now I want to go and find all the other files I have previously tried to transform without success and check the units. Then maybe I have the recipe for transforming coordinates without problems every time.

Thanks for help!

[Pointdump]

PK,

Wait a minute, wait a minute... You did what?

"...I scaled it all down to meters and the transformation worked"

Scaling up or down, and just now I tried both X1000 and 1/1000, does not change the fact that the DenmarkS34-S coordinate system has NO possibility of being transformed to another coordinate system. Notice that the drawing you posted, when opened, does not show the Geolocation Tab in the Ribbon. Bing Live Maps doesn't know what to do with it. Even though MAPCSLIBRARY says DenmarkS34-S is a Projected Coordinate System, and everything in the library definition says it should be, it is broken in Map 3D. Also, any attempt to query that drawing produces a "DWK" file in addition to the DWG file.

One possible way to use your posted drawing would be to make a custom projection, editing a duplicate of ETRS89.UTM-32N with DenmarkS34-S parameters. Maybe...

Dave

[pkLUQ67]

I swear it made a little bit sense last night , because the transformation worked. Now I don't understand anything any more. I appreciate your explanation though, Dave.

[Pointdump]

PK,

You've stumbled onto something really interesting. Take a look at the WKT(Well Known Text) for your two Coordinate Systems:

PROJCS["DenmarkS34-S",GEOGCS["LL-ERP50-DK",DATUM["ERP50-DK",SPHEROID["HAYFORD",6378388.000,297.00000000],TOWGS84[0.0000,0.0000,0.0000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.00000000]],PRIMEM["Greenwich",0],UNIT["Degree",0.017453292519943295]],PROJECTION["Danish System 34, UTM + polynomials (pre-1999 vintage)"],PARAMETER["Region",2.0],UNIT["Meter",1.00000000000000]]

PROJCS["ETRS89.UTM-32N",GEOGCS["LL-ETRF89",DATUM["ETRF89",SPHEROID["GRS1980",6378137.000,298.25722210],TOWGS84[0.0000,0.0000,0.0000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.00000000]],PRIMEM["Greenwich",0],UNIT["Degree",0.017453292519943295]],PROJECTION["Transverse_Mercator"],PARAMETER["false_easting",500000.000],PARAMETER["false_northing",0.000],PARAMETER["central_meridian",9.00000000000000],PARAMETER["scale_factor",0.9996],PARAMETER["latitude_of_origin",0.000],UNIT["Meter",1.00000000000000]]

See where in the DenmarkS34-S definition it says "+ polynomials"? Looking in the CS Library we see this:

I'd never heard of these Polynomial Coefficients before, but Googling produced this:

"In the absence of these polynomial coefficients, all coordinate conversion related to the Danish System 34 coordinate systems will produce results which are intentionally outlandish..."
https://svn.osgeo.org/metacrs/csmap/trunk/CsMapDev/Source/CSsys34KMS.c

And more here about the different regions of Denmark:
https://www.bluemarblegeo.com/knowledgebase/geocalc/classdef/projection/projections/danish_system_34...

It might bear fruit to verify that your drawing is in the correct "Region" or try the post-1999 definition or find a more suitable Coordinate System in the Library. At any rate, Antonio's solution was the quickest and easiest way to fix things up.

Dave

[pkLUQ67]

Wow. I feel this topic is getting a little bit heavy for me with all the polynomials and coefficients.

I tested with "DenmarkS34-S99" from the coordinate system, but I don't think it was any different than "DenmarkS34-S". I still had to fix the units before it worked and I get a single error message every time, that says "Can't transform object. INSERT handle C79 Can't transform point to Lat Long".

[Pointdump]

PK,

I don't know whether the DenmarkS34-S Coordinate System in Map 3D is broken, or whether it's just a non-computable system. QGIS can't deal with it either, and I wasn't able to find an internet "converter" that can handle it.

In Antonio's transformed drawing, when I turned on Bing Live Maps, the linework seemed to match the aerial. Off maybe a meter or two, but close. It wasn't until later that I looked at his ETRS89.UTM-32N Coordinates. Since the DenmarkS34-S Coordinate System in Map 3D doesn't have a correlation between Lat/Long and N/E, how did Antonio figure out that 144900.00,85500.00 in DenmarkS34-S was 6179921.64,710814.23 in ETRS89.UTM-32N?

But perhaps the biggest mystery is Antonio's cryptic reference to "red&white dynamite". I have no clue what that means.

Dave

[antoniovinci]

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Pointdump wrote:

how did Antonio figure out that 144900.00,85500.00 in DenmarkS34-S was 6179921.64,710814.23 in ETRS89.UTM-32N? 

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Not me, but the command _ADEQUERY perfomed the CRS transformation.

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Pointdump wrote:

But perhaps the biggest mystery is Antonio's cryptic reference to "red&white dynamite". I have no clue what that means.

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 Check this out, my dear.

[Pointdump]

Master Antonio,

If _ADEQUERY works for you, then I guess I need to get the Italian Version of Map 3D, because in my 2016 DenmarkS34-S doesn't have a correlation between Lats/Longs and N/E, and hence cannot be transformed to ANY other coordinate system. I also tried QGIS and looked for an online converter. Nope.

OK, Red & White Dynamite. It looks like Europeans are as crazy about sports as Americans.

Dave

[antoniovinci]

Maybe the Danish Projection already embeds all the right correlations, droven by the suitable (1,2,3) zone.

We'd need some consultancy by a red&white geo-blaster, sir...

[Pointdump · Accepted solution]

OK, I figured things out. Here's the steps:

1. Scale the DenmarkS34-S drawing by .001. Save and Close.
2. Open new metric drawing and MAPCSASSIGN to ETRS89.UTM-32N.
3. Attach and Query the DenmarkS34-S drawing. All is good.

I also have a Screencast of the Transform failing because I didn't Scale and Save the first drawing, but I won't post that one.

Dave