Misconception? Paperspace vs Viewport Layer Settings & Layer States

[payingtoomuch]

When I enter a viewport by double clicking, I'm able to manipulate viewport layers independently of both model space and paperspace settings.

And, when I'm in paperspace (but not in a viewport), I'm able to manipulate layers (and therefor entities) in paperspace independently of both model space and the viewport.

So, any changes that I want to appear visually on the sheet itself I change in the layer manager associated with paperspace (say I have a red seal on my xref I can change that to black/white so appears correctly on the sheet).

Similarly, any changes that I want to actually occur on the sheet contained in a viewport, I double click and change. (say a door that is yellow with solid lines that I want to change to black with dashed lines for demo).

So, all of these settings (those made in paperspace and those made inside of the viewport are independent of each other.

So, there would be no reason why I can't select all my layers in paperspace (with the exception of the layers that the objects actually in paperspace are on) and change them to any color and this will have zero effect on anything in the viewport and vice versa.

Assuming I'm right so far, then here is the delimma.

I've created a layer state while in paperspace (not in a viewport) and wanted to have just the layers that are entities actually IN paperspace appear in the layer state layers. So, I opened up the layer state and deleted all the extraneous layers. I have selected by default "turn off all layers not in layer state" selected. Well, even though I'm in paperspace and assign the layer state to paperspace (not when in a viewport), all of my layers turn off inside of the viewports that are not a part of layer state that I'm trying to apply to paperspace only.

What am I missing?

[payingtoomuch]

How about this. What exactly does selecting the tick box to "turn off layers not in layer state" do?

My understanding of it's intended purpose would be so that I can bring in the layer state to a junked up drawing layers (along with my linework from say a template project with accurate layer standards) and apply the layer state and not have to worry about everything else that is not in the layer state showing up. Is that an accurate application?

[pendean]

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@payingtoomuch wrote:

How about this. What exactly does selecting the tick box to "turn off layers not in layer state" do?

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[payingtoomuch]

Thanks Pendean. I was just reading through some of that. Truthfully, it's as clear as mud right now in some areas. Interesting that the "turn off layers not in layer state option" says "layers created after the layer state was saved are turned off". Misconception I had here for sure.

So, the way I'm interpreting this (and the way it's acting) is that as soon as I assign a layer state to a viewport, the viewport forgets that it has a layer state assigned (guessing part of the reason I can't go back and figure out what layer state IS assigned to a viewport).

So as experiment I draw a circle in ms and create a different new layer for it. Go back out to the viewport and the circle shows up. Go out to the layerstate that I originally assigned to the viewport and the new layer is not there. The kicker is that even though I have "turn off layers not in layerstate" selected the circle still shows up.... even though it's not in the layer state. Guess this is simply because the layer was created after the layer state. Counterintuitive to me but oh well.

So, because the layer was created and the circle was drawn after the layer state was created in the viewport AND the viewport immediately forgets what layer state it was assigned, for me to be able to get the circle to go away I have to restore the layer state to the viewport. Crazy huh?

So really has me scratching my head now as to whether it makes more sense (and why) to have "turn off layers not found in layer state" selected or deselected. Humh....

[payingtoomuch]

So now wondering what happens if I just scrap the whole checking the  "turn off layers not found in layerstates" tick box? I mean I can still delete all the layers that I don't want in the particular layer state? I mean, even if I were to have it selected the tick box if I draw on another layer that I create I'm still going to have to change viewport settings regardless if I want the layer state to be accurate going forward. So in that regard what is the point?

Bottom line is (I think) is that if I have layer standards set AND I don't want any layers that are not in that standard to be baggage for the layer state, then I need to delete them from the layer state so I don't carry them to other drawing files.... correct?

[cadffm]

Hi,

[20]
>>"3. BUT, in the layer states layer settings you can only "Freeze in all viewports"."
Yes. And dependend on where you restore this state, it is Layerproperty FREEZE, or in Paperspaces and Viewports: VP Freeze
Also "ON/OFF", in Modelspace it is Layer ON/OFF and in Paperspaces and Viewports: VP Freeze

>>"That being said, I can't get my head wrapped around why I can't create a layer state that will work the same way in paperspace."
You can, what's the problem?
The problem is that you DON'T want that is working the same way by using Layerstates!
huh?
The only problem you talked about is your fight with the 'Turn Off Layers Not Found in Layer State ' option
and the fact that not all layers are present in your layerstate.

By your manual old way, you used VP Freeze and specified this for each individual layer in Viewport or in paperspace (which should be set to VP Freeze),
with layerstates it would also work if you save&restore your wanted settings FOR ALL Layers.

>>"BUT. If I "assign" or attempt to "assign" a layer state to paperspace (not in a viewport) AND I delete the unwanted layers in the layer state"
>>"AND I have the Turn off layers not in layer state function selected then when I assign the layer state I want to paperspace, all the layers"
>>"that I have turned off (because I deleted them) not only disappear in the layout but also all the viewports (and maybe model space)."
OVERALL, the Layer is set to OFF!
And if know about layers and layerperoperties (in this case the property OFF), you know that is the normal behavior.

>>" Whether this is the way it is intended or not is not as I would expect for the function of the tool."
1. I would say, a function who's saying to turn a layer OFF, it works correct.
2. I am with you, it would be nice if that feature would work different:
In Modellspace it should turn Layers OFF (as it works now)
In Papaerspace and Viewports it should turn Layers VP FREEZE

But: We all are Users only, we can explain how the program works, we can add our own function, but nothing more.
Autodesk is the only one who can edit the core program.

[21]
>>"How about this.....Is that an accurate application?"
100%
And it is working well and you you will never have trouble with it - if you work&plot in Modelspace only.
But working with multiple Layouts/viewports, we get the problem that this option set Layers OFF while we need VP Freeze in this situation.

[23]
>>"So, the way I'm interpreting this (and the way it's acting) is"
>>"that as soon as I assign a layer state to a viewport, the viewport forgets that it has a layer state assigned"
Yes, a Viewport is not linked to a layerstate and a layerstate is not linked with a viewport.
On the whole: Restoring a Layerstate is just a feature to speed up the process you would do by hand.

>>"(guessing part of the reason I can't go back and figure out what layer state IS assigned to a viewport)."
You can not figure out what layerstate was restored as last in a viewport.
The only thing you can see is: Which layerstates matchs the current Layerproperties (and VP settings in layouts).
Also here: The program check ALL Layers. In case of your Layerstate has 5 Layers and the drawing has 6 Layers, it will never "match".

- - -

If you like to start to work WITH the program:

Without explaing words (I am tired, have massive headache - and you can think for yourself. I'm just shoving you on it)
go to your viewport or paperspace.

Command: VPLAYER Freeze * current
Restore your layerstate which doesn't have all layers included  ('turn off unknown layer' DISabled)
done.

[ChicagoLooper]

Hi @payingtoomuch 

Wow! I mean wow-wow! That's a lot of work to make colored layers plot black or gray. 

From your description you'd be better off using a CUSTOM monchrome.ctb to plot. The OOTB default monchrome.ctb will plot all layers using each object's CURRENT lineweight and each object's CURRENT line type. Each layer, though, will plot black regardless of the hosting layer's color.

Here's the catch, if you customize a monchrome.ctb then you can over ride the black plotting and make the object plot the current layer's color.

<<For example, if all DEMO objects must appear Red, then you can over ride Demo-to-black plotting so they'll plot red. And if all Plumbing objects are cyan, then over ride the Plumbing-to-black plotting and make them plot Cyan. If you also have certain objects currently drawn in red (e.g. fire extinguishers) and want them to plot black because they won't be demo'd, then change these specific red object's from red to color 240 which looks red. No one, except you, will know it's really 240. When you go to plot, the ctb will force color 240 to plot black. For non-plumbing objects (e.g. office furniture) drawn in cyan that you want to plot black (firniture isn't plumbing) change these to color 130 which looks cyan. The ctb will force 130 to plot black.>>

This might sound like a lot of work, but when compared to your current Layer States workflow, it'll be easier and more intuitive.

Generally speaking, for colors 1 through 9 and colors 250 through 255, you may use the Object's Current Color for the actual plot, not black. For the majority of colors, colors 10 through 250, let the ctb force these colors to plot black and adopt their Current lineweight and line type. You may find it necessary to over ride individual colors, lineweights and line types in the Layer Properties Manager as needed in order to achieve the final plot appearance. This may sound tedious but it'll be a lot less cumbersome and much faster than plotting through Layer States. 

Keep in mind this is a custom monchrome.ctb so name and save it accordingly. Each custom monchrome.ctb file you create will vary from ctb-to-ctb. Also when plotting, you may choose to use, or not use, this custom ctb. 

Colors 1 thru 9 and 250 thru 255 will plot using their object color. Object color=Layer color when object's color is set to ByLayer. You may keep the object’s current lineweight and line type or you may over ride them. Refer to image-1.

Image-1

Colors 11 thru 249 (e.g. color 240) will plot to black regardless of the hosting layer's color. You may keep the object’s current lineweight and line type or you may over ride them. Refer to image-2.

Image-2

For plotting, you have the right idea but using the an inefficient tool. Try experimenting with a custom monochrome.ctb because right now you’re PayingTooMuch time building your Layer States.