How do I create AEC Objects with visible layers that do not plot?

How do I create AEC Objects with visible layers that do not plot?

leewh246
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How do I create AEC Objects with visible layers that do not plot?

leewh246
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I want to create AEC Walls with visible layers that do not plot. So far, I have accomplished this by using non plotting layers for wall components that I want to see in the drawing but I do not want to see in the plotted drawing. Using this method, I have created layers with descriptive names dedicated only for use in AEC Walls for each type of wall component necessary. In drawings with many wall types and numerous different components, I end up with a lot of different layer names only used for AEC Walls. I want to simplify this and reduce the number of layers.

 

I am thinking the best way to do this is to use layer "0" for every component I want to see in plots and layer "defpoints" for every component I do not want to see in plots. Does anyone have a better way to do this?

 

 

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Message 2 of 14

David_W_Koch
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If you are going to throw all of the non-plotting components on one layer anyway, why not create one layer for that purpose (A-Wall-Nplt-N?), and leave Defpoints alone?  I try to avoid using Defpoints for anything other than for what AutoCAD (Architecture) uses it.  That also allows for the possibility of changing the plot status of that layer should you have an occasion where you want to plot those items, such as for checking purposes.


David Koch
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Message 3 of 14

leewh246
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Thank you for your reply. I will follow your advise and create the non-plotting layer you suggest and not use the defpoints layer. My intent for using defpoints was to stick with layers what come standard with AutoCAD. I examined many AEC walls that come with AutoCAD and they all used layer 0 for all components but I found no non-plotting components. A while back, I experimented with using the Display Properties for my Wall Styles to make some components not plot but I could not get what I wanted. Ideally, I would like to use layer 0 for all components but have some that display but do not plot. Is there any way I can do this? If not, and probably the best strategy, I will create the non-plotting layer you suggest.

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Message 4 of 14

David_W_Koch
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A non-plotting layer is probably the better approach.  You can set up a plot style that does not plot (set it to 0 percent screening; see Invisible Ink in the Aec Standard.stb plot style file for an example), but if I recall correctly, that is not truly non-plotting - it just uses the background color.  So if your non-plotting component is on top of something that plots, the "invisible ink" component will overwrite the plotting component with "white" - similar to a wipeout.


David Koch
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Message 5 of 14

leewh246
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I will just create a non-plotting layer as you have suggested. I am reluctant to try to solve this issue with a Plot Style, partly due to what you mention, but I am worried other issues may arise that I can not anticipate. A year or two ago I experimented with transparency and invisible ink, but for reasons I do not remember, that did not give me what I wanted. I thought I did this in the Display Properties for one of my Wall Styles, but I just checked there again and I do not see invisible ink as an option. Now I am not sure where I tried this, maybe it was a Plot Style. 

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Message 6 of 14

leewh246
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I got busy and just got back to this topic today. I created a non-plotting layer similar to what you suggested. I used "A-Wall-Comp-Nplt". I added the "Comp" because I saw that used in other drawings I have received.

 

In an empty DWG I created a new Wall Style with the "New" option. I used layer "0" with color 7 (black) for all components I wanted to plot and layer "A-Wall-Comp-Nplt" with color 255 for all components I did not want to plot. In the Style Manager, Display Properties, for this new Wall, the Display Property Source is "Drawing Default". This is what I intended and the results are what I expected but I wanted to see to make sure. When I inserted Out-Of-The-Box Wall Styles, for components I had defined in my new Style (for example, Boundary 1), the Out-Of-The-Box Wall Styles took on the properties of my new Wall Style. For components I had not defined, it appears that the Out-Of-The-Box Wall Styles remained as they were initially created. These Out-Of-The-Box Wall Styles only displayed the Hatch patterns which I had defined and any others were not displayed, and when plotting, some components were gone.

 

Is this assumption correct:

My Wall Styles should have the Display Property Source as "Wall Style Override" to not affect Out-Of-The-Box Wall Styles or Styles by others that could exist in a drawing.

 

Another problem with my new Style is that some non-plotting components are on top of plotting components and the Wall does not display in the DWG as I intended. This is not a big deal because I know what is what and the Wall plots as intended. Is there a way, however, to get the plotting components on top of the non-plotting components?

 

This discussion and my experimenting with Wall Styles may only have been a learning exercise for me. As it turns out, for some components that I want plotted, they are too close together and plot as one line thicker than I want. For example, a wood framed wall with 1/2" GWB. The interior face of the GWB is represented by the shrink wrap on layer "A-Wall" with a lineweight of 0.35mm and the studs are on layer "0" with a lineweight of 0.09mm. These two plot as one heavy line. I think I will just continue to use the Wall Styles I had created prior to this post where I did not try to plot internal components of wood framed walls.

 

Prior to this post, all of the Wall Styles I had created had distinct layer names for all wall components and the Display Property Source is "Wall Style Override". This allowed me to easily control the display in the DWG and only plot what I wanted and my Wall Styles did not affect any Styles from others. The distinct layer names that I created all start with "AEC_" to group them together and provide distinct names separating them from other layers names in a DWG.  My intent with this post was to reduce the number of layers in my Styles, my Doors and Windows also have distinct "AEC_..." layer names, and instead,  only use only layer "0" and hopefully only one non-plotting layer.  This does not appear to be possible and give me everything that I want. Unless anyone has a solution, I will just revert back to using the previous Styles I have created.

 

One last question. What is the best way to keep my Styles consistent and current throughout all DWGs. I have not investigated this much on my own yet. From what I have found, making changes in the Style Manager in one DWG, will have no affect on Styles in other DWGS. Inserting a Style from one DWG into a target DWG has no affect on Styles in the target DWG and for some Styles has the opposite affect, the inserted Style takes on properties in the target DWG. Once I am sure I got all of my Styles as I want, I plan to create a Tool Palette. Will this help in keeping my Styles consistent and current throughout all DWGs?

 

Thanks

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Message 7 of 14

David_W_Koch
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I am not in front of a computer right now, so this will not be an exhaustive response. 

 

Changes made to styles or drawing-default display settings will only affect that drawing, unless you copy them to other drawings. 

 

In order for each Wall Style to have its own display settings for the same components, you either have to create a style-level override for each style -or- you have to set component display to be by material, and then assign Material Definitions to each component that have style-level overrides of their own to have unique display settings.  The out-of-the-box Wall Styles use the latter method.  This makes it easier to get the same settings on the same component type (for example, brick) across all of your Wall Styles.  It also makes it easier to make a change to all of them, as you only have to edit the Material Definition, not each Wall Style.


David Koch
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Message 8 of 14

leewh246
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Thank you for your reply, I have looked into your comments.

 

I experimented with Wall Style component display set “By Material” compared to “By Layer”.  With “By Material” set, I have no control over the lineweight of the various components and they all plot with the same lineweight determined by the layer the Wall is on. I also found that with “By Material” set, there is no way to have some components display in the DWG but not plot. With the component display set “By Layer”, I can control the plotted lineweight of the various components and also have components that display in the DWG but do not plot.

 

I also experimented some more with Wall Style display set to “Drawing Default” compared to “Wall Style Override”. If I want to create a Wall Style that will not affect other Styles I have already created or may create later, or affect Styles by others, and also not be affected by my existing Styles or Styles by others, then I HAVE to set a “Wall Style Override”. I think I was mistaken to equate overrides in Wall Styles with overrides in Dimension Styles where I never use overrides and consider them bad. It now appears that overrides in Wall Styles are good and for my purposes necessary.

 

When I experimented with Wall Style component display set “By Material”, I created some new materials. I am now thinking that the names I chose should have been more unique and maybe more descriptive. For example, for drywall, I created a material called “GWB”. This name is so generic and simple that it is possible that others may have a material with the same name in their Styles. What happens when I import a Style by others that have a material with the same name I used but the definitions are different? I assume mine will overwrite theirs.

 

In conclusion, in order to get my Wall Styles to behave as I want and to have control over them as I have explained in this post, I need to do the following:

 

I need to set the Wall Style display to "Wall Style Override" for each Style.

I need to set the Wall Style component display to "By Layer" for each component.

Use layer “0” for all components I want to plot and use a non-plotting layer for components that I want to display in the DWG but not plot.

 

Is this all correct or have I missed something?

 

I have attached a DWG with two of the Styles I created to experiment with and out-of-the-box Styles that I inserted to compare with. I also experimented with some Styles in other DWGs, therefore, many of the possible settings I tried are not shown in the attached DWG. Do a plot preview of the layout in the DWG to see the plotted Wall Styles.

 

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Message 9 of 14

David_W_Koch
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@leewh246 

 

Anything you can do in the Wall Style display overrides for a component you can do with a Material Definition.  You are just moving the place where the settings are stored from each Wall Style to a Material Definition. 

 

I looked at the Siding, Sheathing, 2X6 Studs, and GWB Material Definitions that you set up.  You had a style-level override in each for the General Medium Detail Display Representation for Material Definitions, which is the active Display Representation on the Model tab of your file.  That is good if you want to be able to have unique settings for each Material Definition.  (If you go this route, you may need to add overrides for other Display Representations if you use them in other View Directions or other Display Configurations.)

 

In those overrides, you changed the settings for the Hatching of the Plan Hatch component, which are reflected in the drawing.  But the settings on the Layer/Color/Linetype tab are all the same, so they will display the same.  All but two of the components on that tab are set to Layer 0 with ByBlock attributes, so they will show with the attributes of the parent Wall.  (Sectioned Boundary and Sectioned Body, which are not on display on the Model tab of your drawing, are similar, but have explicit assignments for Color.)

 

If you want the components to have different colors, lineweights, or other attributes from the parent Wall, then you need to make those assignments in the Material Definition, on the Layer/Color/Linetype tab.

 

Original Settings for the Siding Material DefinitionOriginal Settings for the Siding Material Definition

 

Settings I modified in the Siding Material Definition.Settings I modified in the Siding Material Definition.

 

Bottom Wall, with By Material Settings, Now Matches Other TwoBottom Wall, with By Material Settings, Now Matches Other Two

 

I attached the modified file.


David Koch
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Message 10 of 14

leewh246
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Thanks David, your comments got me what I wanted. I ignored my Walls with component display “By Layer” and made no changes to those but I did update my Walls with component display “By Material” per your comments. These now display and plot as I want. From your previous replies, if I understand correctly, the “By Material” method is the best way to make changes to all of my Wall Styles by only needing to update the material definitions and not each Wall Style individually. If this understanding is correct, I will use the “By Material” method for creating new Styles. Please let me know if my understanding is not correct.



For the purposes of this discussion, I renamed my new Wall Styles to shorten their names but still be descriptive for the type of wall and settings used. I copied one these Styles to create a new Wall Style for existing walls named “Test LW Exist Ext 2X6_Override_by_Material_02” and then edited it as required. Since I want this wall to display different than new walls, I renamed my material definitions and created new ones. Now I have materials for components with hatch patterns that I want to display and also for components that I do not want to display hatch patterns. This may have been a bad way to do this since the existing Wall will never need to display or plot like a new Wall so the material definitions for the existing Wall probably should have been done differently. Any comments about this?



A topic new to this discussion is “By Blockvs “By Layer”. For existing walls to be demolished, I plan to put the new “existing” Wall Style on a Demo layer that will display the existing wall with dashed lines. To do this, I had to change the linetype of the Shrink Wrap from “By Blockto “By Layer”. I think I should do this for all of my Wall Styles but have not yet. Probably 30 years ago, I experimented with “By Blockvs “By Layer” and determined that “By Layer” was the best setting for my use and have stuck with this ever since. When I recently created new Wall Styles, I looked at out-of-the-box Wall Styles and Styles from others and saw that they exclusively use the “By Blocksetting so I created my new Styles that way. I anticipated that this might not work for situations as noted above for a wall to be demolished. I plan to experiment more with “By Blockvs “By Layer” settings and anticipate that I may switch back to the “By Layer” setting for most or all linetypes and maybe even colors when appropriate. Currently and probably going forward, I will specify the lineweight in the Wall Style. Any comments on this?



One last thing. I do not think I fully understand “Default” display properties. When I experimented with this, my Wall Styles would affect or be affected by out-of-the-box Wall Styles and Styles from others. To avoid this conflict, my Wall Styles have “Style Override” display properties. Ideally, I think, I would like my Wall Styles to have “Default” display properties. Is there a way to make my Wall Styles have “Default” display properties and not affect or be affected by out-of-the-box Wall Styles or Styles from others? Either way, once I get all of the settings and display properties worked out for the Walls in this discussion, I hope to just copy them and edit as needed to create new Wall Styles.



I have attached a DWG with my updated Wall Styles and the new one mentioned above. Do a plot preview of the layout in the DWG to see the plotted Wall Styles. To see the dashed linetype display properly, ltscale needs to = 1. I work in the model space with ltscale set to the scale of the plotted DWG that I am working on, in this case, ltscale=48 when working in model space and when I plot, ltscale=1.

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Message 11 of 14

David_W_Koch
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Your understanding of By Material is correct. Material Definitions provide a way to set component display settings - including hatches and render materials - for a given Wall component (such as Brick) in one place and apply them to multiple Wall Styles.  If you later decide to change your standard, or if a specific project requires a change (eg, yellow brick instead of red brick), making the change to the Material Definition for that project will make the change to the components of all Wall Styles in that file that use that Material Definition.

 

How you choose to show existing vs new is up to you, based on your typical workflows.  My firm does mostly commercial and institutional projects.  Our floor plans are typically at 1/8" = 1'-0" and we only show the Shrink Wrap component, not the individual components, as at that scale the lineweight of the component lines is often wider than the actual component width.  We do set our Wall Styles up with all of the components and have a Display Representation that will show them and any hatches if we do enlarged plan details from the "live" model.  We handle new/existing/demo by the settings on the layer of the parent Wall object.  (Shrink Wrap is not by material, but on Layer 0 with ByBlock properties and the parent Wall's properties are ByLayer.)  We have generic existing-to-remain and demolition Wall Styles that are set up with variable-width single-component for modeling existing conditions where we do not know the composition of the Wall (but have a reasonably close understanding of the overall width of the Wall).  If we are renovating an area where we were the original design architects and did the original drawings with ACA Walls, we will just change the layer to an existing layer for items to remain or a demolition layer for items to be removed.  Since we are not showing components, that works.  If you want to have multi-component existing and demolition Walls that parallel your new Walls but omit hatches then setting up a Material Definition that has the Plan Hatch component turned off would be a way to achieve that. If the Plan Linework component can have the same settings for all components, you could have just one Existing Material Definition that would work for all components. In other words, you would not need a whole new set of Material Definitions for existing to remain Walls, one for each new Material Definition.


ByLayer vs ByBlock:  Which to use depends on where you want to control the display of things, and whether you are assigning explicit layers in the display settings.  For components that are being placed on Layer 0 (so they inherit the layer of the parent Wall object), I generally prefer to use ByBlock for attributes (Color, Linetype, Lineweight, etc.) that are not being given a specific value.  99.999% of the time, the parent Wall object will have its properties set to ByLayer, in which case ByBlock or ByLayer will have the same result:  changing the setting on the layer (or changing the layer to one with different settings) will be reflected in the Wall.  But in the 0.001% of cases where I want to do something unique to a very small number of Walls without creating a new layer for them, the ByBlock setting allows me to change the properties of the parent Wall and have the component show that.  If you want to control things at the layer level and prefer to create a new layer if you need to change the properties, then use ByLayer. This blog article has an attempt I made to illustrate the differences between assigning ByBlock and ByLayer to nested objects in a block definition.  The example uses Color, but it applies to the other properties also. Display settings on components of AEC objects, like Walls, behave the same way.  There are three levels to the Display System.  Drawing Default settings apply to all objects that do not have an override.  Style-level Overrides allow you to have settings that only apply to objects of that style or definition.  These can be useful if you need to show the same component in a different way in different styles. But that also makes it difficult to make changes to similar components in multiple styles. The By Material option was eventually added as a way to be able to vary the settings of each component while having one place to make the settings (and any changes) for all similar components across all styles.  Object-level overrides are the final level, in which you can have unique display settings on individual objects.  These should be used sparingly, if at all, because you have to edit each object if further changes need to be made.

 

Unfortunately, overrides are an all-or-nothing thing. If you set an override, it applies to all settings in that Display Representation.  You cannot just override the settings on one component and have the rest follow the Drawing Default settings, picking up any future changes made there.

 

As for the dashed line issue when moving the Existing Wall to the demolition layer, in your four "Invisible" Material Definitions, I changed the Linetype of the Plan Linework component from ByLayer to ByBlock, so that it now inherits the linetype of the Parent Wall.  That remains a continuous line when on the existing Wall layer, but changes to a dashed line when on the demolition Wall layer.

 

Snag_3d620ed.png


David Koch
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Message 12 of 14

leewh246
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Thanks David, your latest reply clears up everything except:

I am not sure what you mean by “parent wall”. I would assume that a “parent wall” is a particular Wall Style. Your comment “Shrink Wrap is not by material, but on Layer 0 with ByBlock properties and the parent Wall's properties are ByLayer” has me confused. I have seen and edited display settings for shrink wrap, components (boundary), hatches, materials, etc., but no parent wall. Do you mean the parent wall’s properties are controlled by the layer a Wall Style in on?



Just some comments, no questions below:

I currently have a collection of AEC Walls, Doors and Windows that I have created and use on projects. These AEC Objects were created in a hurry after upgrading from ADT 2004 to ACA 2021 and done with little understanding of what I was doing. I did not use any AEC Objects in ADT 2004. The intent of this post was to try to learn some “best practices” for creating AEC Walls and gain a better understanding of the process. When I think I have done this and have the time, I plan to recreate my collection of AEC Objects.



For most walls, I also show walls on floor plans as you do, only the Shrink Wrap component. For walls with brick veneer, ICF walls, 2X4 furred concrete walls, etc., I do show some components since the size and/or spacing of the components allow them to plot as distinctly different components. In the sample DWGs that I attached, the 2X6 exterior wall with all components displayed and hatched, was only for me to experiment with and learn from. From what I learned from that wall, those settings will be applied to more complex walls with brick veneer, ICF walls etc.



I work entirely in 2D with every sheet, except site plans, all in one drawing file. I do not use any of the drawing management features in ACA or use any of the various display representations other than “Plan”. This was initially due to the skill level and lack of desire to do otherwise in the office I worked for. Now, I am doing contract work for architects and designers and none of them use drawing management features or display representations other than “Plan”. I have however, while following exercises in an ACA book, created a Project and some Constructs. This was a while ago and I hope to get back to it when time permits. Due to the small size of commercial and residential buildings that I work on, I currently do not think the Project environment would be much of an advantage for me. Plus, the people I do work for would not know what to do with drawings in a “Project” environment and one of them uses AutoCad LT, which I assume can not open a “Project”.

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Message 13 of 14

David_W_Koch
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Apologies for the unclear terminology.

 

When I said parent Wall, I was referring to the Wall object itself.  The use of "parent" was an attempt to describe the relationship between the Wall object and its "children" components. 

 

When using ByLayer for a particular attribute of a Wall component, that component will pick up the property value of the layer assigned to that component, except for Layer 0, in which case it will pick up the property value of the layer of the "parent object" - the Wall.

 

When using ByBlock for a particular attribute of a Wall component, that component will pick up the property value of the "parent object" - the Wall.  If the Wall property is set to ByLayer, then the component will pick up the property value of the Wall's layer.  If the Wall property is set explicitly, then the component will pick up the explicit property value.


David Koch
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Message 14 of 14

leewh246
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My interpretation of what you meant by “parent wall” was correct although the wording I used was not correct. As you clarified, “the Wall object itself” is what I meant.

 

I think this discussion has gone beyond my initial question so I will consider this post solved and all of my questions answered.

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