3ds Max Include / Exclude - Arnold Lights

[Anonymous]

Hi.

Am I correct in thinking that with the combined release of Arnold 5.3 and 3ds Max 2020, the super-important Include/Exclude for Arnold Lights has, at last, been added?

[nicola.stefano.jannuzzo]

It was added a while ago, there is a dedicated group in the Arnold Properties modifier.

See https://docs.arnoldrenderer.com/display/A5AF3DSUG/Light+Group

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your reply.

The Arnold Properties workflow is not good, as I work with CAD data, so have many objects in my scenes. I would have to apply that modifier - and edit its Include / Exclude list - to each object, which would take a lifetime.

Max's built-in Include / Exclude works from a given light's perspective, so all (or some) objects can be included / excluded to a light. It's a much faster and logical way of working.

Obviously, if I'm understanding it wrong, and can have the same workflow as Max's built-in functionality, then please let me know.

Otherwise, it's quite ridiculous that this STILL hasn't been added. It's been on the Arnold roadmap since 2017!

[nicola.stefano.jannuzzo]

Sure, supporting some native Max workflow is in our roadmap, lights are a big thing in that story.

Just out of curiosity, what is the Arnold roadmap you are referring to ?

[Anonymous]

I just tried experimenting with stacked Arnold Properties. One modifier for Visibility, Shadows, etc, then another modifier for Light Groups.

I had the idea of applying the Arnold Properties modifier to a multiple selection of objects, purely to control which lights are Included / Excluded at a group/global-level, but it seems if an object has a light in its excluded list, it will also not received shadows from that light (Max's native Include/Exclude allow separate Illunimation / Shadow controls). SMH. So Light Groups are an absolute no-go.

As for the roadmap, it's alluded to in the last post here:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/3ds-max-shading-lighting-and/excluding-objects-from-being-lit-in-arno...

[aaronfross]

Pardon me if I'm not understanding the issue, but isn't this also the behavior of the native Include/Exclude functionality of a 3ds Max light? If an object is excluded from receiving illumination from a light, it's not possible to see shadows from that light... that's not how it works.

My understanding is that the Arnold Properties Modifier provides the same functions, just from an object-centered workflow rather than a light-centered workflow. In either case, if an object doesn't receive illumination from a light, it can't possibly render a shadow from that light. The shadow is the absence of light caused by occlusion from other objects. If the light is excluded from an object, we could consider that *all* of the illumination from that light is occluded... it's all shadow.

If you want to exclude an object from casting shadows, you can do that using Shadow Groups in the Arnold Properties.

If you need to manage exclusion on many objects, you can select many objects and add an Arnold Properties modifier... that modifier will be instanced to all of the selected objects.

[paulbrogren]

Here's the problem:

If we add a light to a scene we have to add an Arnold Properties to those objects (or select a bunch and instance, etc., whatever)  that we don't want to be affected by that light.  Do you see the problem there?   In native max light's object include/exclude we only have to include that object in that dedicated light.  It is currently a quite the nightmare.  Most other renderers maintain this light include/exclude ability.  They let the light itself have control, simply because there are fewer lights, or perhaps many instanced lights, than there are objects in a scene typically.

Is there any hope anyone of this changing back to native light include/exclude control?

[vossen]

Yes, me too am looking for this…excluding from light means excluding from shadows, that sucks…you want to have shadow of an object from a top light on a backdrop but not have the this toplight on the object…pleas bring it back, it is a software program, not real life..

[wernienst]

IMHO the Arnold way is better because there are much more options. Look here:

In this scene there are an orange and a blue Distant Light and 20 white spheres.

By using the Light and Shadow Groups of the Arnold Properties Modifier

I can decide which light illuminates which object and which shadow is created.

Using Visibility/Camera I even can render shadows only!

If there are multiple objects which need a certain setting, I select them

(and maybe create a Selection Set) and then Copy/Paste Instanced that Modifier.

Multiple Arnold Properties Modifiers can be added to an object, but only the top-most will be executed.

[vossen]

Thank you for this answer, I am going to try this out, I did see the Arnold property modifier and tried it out, but did not see the shadow group. I will let you know if it worked, thank you for now.

Regards, Anne Vossen

[vossen]

Hi Wenienst, I tried what you wrote here, but for my case it does not work well.

I have a scene setup: a backdrop and some Arnold lights and an replacable object. I want one light that ONLY lights up the backdrop. Since the Arnold properties is attached to the object, I can not exclude the replacable object, because it will be replaced the whole time for making different renderings. Why not make the modifier on the light, so that you can choose wich object is included...and therefore the rest excluded. So you can change the objects, and have the backdrop stay lit up with that single light..

I hope someone has an answer for that.

Regards  Anne Vossen

[wernienst]

Well, as being said, an object that is excluded from a light, cannot receive shadows from objects illuminated by that light. This is also true for light-oriented settings.

However, depending on your scene, there might be a workaround:

Here is the start scene: an object, a backdrop (the sphere is part of the backdrop - just for illustration), an orange and a blue Distant light.

Now hide the object and render the backdrop with the blue light only.

Restart Max.

In Arnold Render Settings, set this image as Custom Background. Assign a Shadow/Matte material to the backdrop.

Disable the blue light and enable the orange light. Add an Arnold Properties modifier to the backdrop, enable Shadows and check Receive Shadows only.

Voilà! Now you can replace the object (here: the teapot) with any other object.

[vossen]

Hi Wernienst: thank you for your answer, I wanted to have an transparant background with the shadow visible, for product rendering. I was not very clear with my question I think... In the meantime I found this tutorial: https://youtu.be/G2Dy7IvUP3w?si=ISK_JGW6KDLjqO_j: capturing shadows with Arnold shadow matte map. Using the shadow matte map as an material and put that to the backdrop, + arnold properties modifier on the backdrop with recieve shadows on, did the trick. 

Your example is great indeed for when you want the backdrop visible with shadow of a light that does not lighten up anything else. Thanks...