Adding capped nuts to the database

[m.steffannoe]

It would be great to have capped nuts with their graphical representation in Advance Steel.

In my case: Standardized in DIN 1587.

The lenght has to be correctly calculated for the nut to be tightened.

The graphical representation is necessary for detailing to make it visibly clear, that this nut is not a standard nut.

The database format needs to be changed to represent the height and the radius of the cap and the depth of the thread within the capped nut has to be definded for the calculations (collision of screw to the cap).

[Sebastian_Eiche]

nice idea, but only for your interest: the nuts only have a height and width in the databases. 
For your idea, the whole databases had to be changed. To find a parametric for creating such nuts bases on databases an not based on solids, is very difficult. 
Because the solid had to be described, but should describe normal nuts too. Otherwise there had to be different nut types in the databases, so we need extra tables. this will also include to have a table "sets"which uses different table for nuts to create a set for the screw. The calculation should show a clash, if the screw is not short enough? I mean this could be done by griplength calculation...
So the result: complete changed database structure.
It would be very interesting how many votes this idea will get, to see how important this will be. 
I  would like to see this could be managed by the development, because now, I could advise to do it maybe like you: use a block for this.

[Drawtech]

...in any case, it is already possible to deal with capped/dome nuts.
OK, you do not get the true visual representation (dome top), but does that really matter so long as your bolt lists are correct?
It is certainly already possible to create nuts of the required overall dimensions and rules to calculate the bolt lengths correctly so as not to run out of thread within the dome nut.
I use them myself!

[Sebastian_Eiche]

This is what the way should be. This is what I wanted to say, in which scale is it really useful... there's maybe a lot lot

[Sebastian_Eiche]

Other problems to do

[mick-CNF]

I use these quite often and the visual representation is fairly important for me as the Architects always pick it up when I send drawings for approval even though I put it in my label.

With bolt lists how would you determine how many you are using if you are using them and normal nuts?

[Sebastian_Eiche]

I could understand you (really) but this is maybe a problem of "digitalization" 😃 
The drawings you send are mostly dwg or pdf (I only guess), this files are "zoomable". So the result is definitely not really nice. But if you use a 100% view and activate the lineweights...there's just a big black block =). 
The capped nut is interesting up what scale? 1:10?
I don't want to spoil the idea, because I think there're many situation in which it would be good to have it, but the question is how often we use it.

[Drawtech]

Regarding your question on the bolt lists:
You would create new capped nuts with the correct dimensions and a different name to any existing nuts.
Then create new bolt sets that include the capped nuts (possibly a set that has a capped nut AND a regular nuts in the same set or maybe just a capped nut and a washer). It's up to you which combination of washers and nuts go in a particular bolt set.
Then create rules for the new bolt set to calculate the correct bolt lengths.
The bolt lists will deal with the correct quantities of each nut type etc.
...so the only thing currently missing is the visual representation.
You could always use a block to show a "typical" nut detail with the dome head?

[m.steffannoe]

Hi Mick



I use special parts. They have their own list. So they are counted and there is a list for buying them.



Greetings

Steffan

[m.steffannoe]

Hello Sebastian,



we are using Detailing up to 1:2, 1:5



The project, I’m currently working on, is a project split in two halfes. The first half had been planned in 2D. This time we plan with AS in 3D.



Capped nuts were often used in railings. I can’t use standard railings because they are slanted 20:1, build out of flat stock material instead of tubes together with folded sheets as combined hand rails. The architect drove crazy as he designed this.



The only connection I can use here are anchors. Everything else is done by special parts.



We are working in building harbours and related stuff. AS is not very helpful solving these special needs. We use welded studs for connections to sheet piles and capped nuts to protect threads against corrosion together with material 1.4571. This makes Korrex insulating bushings necessary. Our customers demand them even if they are not statically verifiable.



Bye

Steffan

[m.steffannoe]

Hello drawtech.



Yes that‘s the plan to define them AND to get them into drawings. I dislike solutions that work around things. What is a 3D model good for if you have to do a separate detail in 2D? If something changes you have to do it twice. If you forget this you have inconsistencies. This is a 3D model for: eliminating inconsistencies by design (not by brain).



It’s a little better than doing it in 2D completely, but not what I’m aming for.



Here I use multiple combinations.



Welded and threaded studs (on top of the surface), Korrex insulating bushing, washer and capped nut.

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Hex bolt with 2 washers, 2 Korrex insulating bushings and capped nut.

[cid:image002.png@01D52B5A.85E38870]



In sizes M12 and M20.



I even have M5 bolts ending in a plate with threads, no nuts and no washers.

[cid:image003.png@01D52B5B.3E202510]



A co-worker of mine used threaded rods or a piece of round stock with threads cut on both ends, combined with washers and bolts on both sides.





It’s easier to create or change them as a connection than using special parts.



I’d like to get a better use of my worktool.



Everyone is talking about BIM. BIM is a method of working. It’s about processes and to optimize them. As a construction engineer my best point for optimization is my tool. Thinking about the construction does not go faster. Especially in a case where you always build unique constructions. The things we build are not standardized as it would be for building a warehouse.



If the tool does not grow in abilities, what is it good for? Software has to become better… If It’s not going to be better I have to look for better tools. This is not easy. But some when it’s necessary.



The demands from our customers rising. Be faster, be more precise, give more data out of this model and so on. Maybe you all know this. To make this possible the tools we use have to support us in doing this. It’s awful to waste my time solving such problems. I could use this time for my (construction) work…



Bye

Steffan

[Sebastian_Eiche]

I would give you Kudos if this was available here, the last part is more then true

[mick-CNF]

When adding bolts in MT I presume the nut gets added as a symbol from the symbols folder?

How do you add new nuts in MT from dwg symbols?

If that is the case can you modify the nut dwg like the image and save it as a dome nut and create a new bolt assembly and use the dome nut create symbol?

[m.steffannoe]

Hello @Anonymous



AFAIK the objects are made parametrically out of the parameters placed in the database. This way it’s not necessary to relay on external dwg’s for the graphical representation.



You just need a few parameters.



The part you need for every hex nut are.



1. diameter of inner hole (thread part)

2. inner diameter of the outer hexagon in germany it’s the width of the wrench (the outer diameter would be the measurement from edge to edge, it’s not necessary I think. This would be smaller in nature because the edges are rounded).

3. height of the nut part.



Then you need just a few extra values.

4. all over height from bottom (the washer side) of the hex part to the top of the cap.

5. radius of the cap in z direction (center point is related from the top of the cap)

6. diameter of the cap (for the xy plane).

7. height of the thread within the cap.



In the standards there is an additional value. The wall thickness of the cap on top of the cap, but I think this is not relevant. For collision calculations the length of the screw can’t be longer than the thread within the capped nut, if there is one (If I’m right there are some standards with or without threads within the cap, but I might be wrong).



This way you do not have to add dwg symbols. This is the progress you have to make that you do not need to relay on external dwg’s as symbols.



I need them for special parts. My workaround for now. I didn’t create shop drawings by now. I have to do some modifications today and then this step will come…



As @Sebastian_Eiche stated out, if I understood him correctly, the 2D representation of the shop drawing might look black. Even for the more detailed scales like 1:5 or 1:2.



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These circles of the cap will be visible. I had to use a polygon for the rotation instead of a circle. Combining an arc with a line leads to an spline object which AutoCAD does not allow to use for rotation to get a volumetric body. The graphics core of AutoCAD lacks of functionality in this part.



An alternative would be to use stl or step files. So just the surface instead of a volumetric body. Each edge of the surfaces faces (the triangles created by tessellation to represent the surface) would lead to be drawn on the shop drawing, I think. I didn’t tested this for such detailed parts. I used step files for pre manufactured ladders and their single parts, combined them in the model. This worked fine.



Really, it’s not easy. There is a lot to be done to bring AS to a new level.





Bye

Steffan

[m.steffannoe]

Good morning everyone.

In the meantime I had to use countersunk bolts (flat-head socket head cap screw, ISO 10642, M5) too.

If bolts and nuts are reworked, I would mention to get them too. I used them to cap the junction box on a street lamp integrated in a railing.

Would it make sense to divide the database region based?

Also to complete the database. I'm missing some bolt sizes and series. Lower sizes and bigger ones too. I had M5 (flat-head socket head cap screw), M8, M10 for regular bolts. They often start at M12.

M33 (ISO 4762, hexagon socket head cap screw).

I could also imagine Torx and Allen keys instead of hexagon keys. The key size should be in the database as space above the screw like the space needed for hexagon keys beneath bolts and nuts.

Have a nice day

Steffan