Square cut "mitre" joint

[Drawtech]

I often model balustrade manually as I find it quicker to get what I want and get better drawings due to better placed system lines etc.

...anyway, if using flat bars as handrail or mid rails, I generally leave the ends square cut as the gaps can be filled when welding together.

Whilst a flat bar to post can be connected with the "saw cut flange" joint with the "straight cut" option ticked (shown in screenshot below), if you have 2 flats in a "mitre" situaton but want to leave the ends square cut for the gap to be filled by weld (circled in screenshot below) I am not aware of a joint that will do it and so have always done manually with shortenings.

Does anyone know if there IS an existing joint that will do a square cut "mitre"? 

I have tried everything I can think of!

If there is nothing else, the mitre joint could do with a "straight cut" option...

[Sebastian_Eiche · Accepted solution]

hmmm, I think there's automatic joint for it (but would be usefull =).
I would select both beams to have the clash marking, so I could use the measure a bit better. 
After this I would use the beam shortening to set this value and add this on both beams...not very handy

[acbsdesign · Accepted solution]

Hi Dave,

AS2021 has a great new feature "Lengthen", it works like a charm.

Lengthen 

HTH

[Drawtech]

...for manual shortening, I find the quickest is to set UCS to the Flat, move UCS to the intersection (Apparent Intersection SOMETIMES works, otherwise a couple of construction lines), then shorten at UCS.  No need to measure anything.

[Drawtech]

Thanks Ilko,

However I was looking for a joint so it updates if you move things.

I also prefer to use a shortening to keep the system line setting out in place.

...and I'm still using AS2020 due to issues in AS2021.

...but what you say is useful for some things 🙂

[dave_conibear · Accepted solution]

It's a bit "broad as it is long" really Dave (for me at least)

For the Apparent Intersect Sometimes  🙂 yes, but it seems a lot better in 2021..not so hit and miss, but anyway, I haven't found a joint/macro that will do this......for me, I find it just as quick to do a clash check on the two items as Sebastian says, then I use that to either measure and add a "shorten" and then as you say the system line remains, if you need it, or just use it to cut and then delete the small offcut so to speak.

[Drawtech]

Thanks all.

Some useful ideas - using the clash check object is something I hadn't thought of.

...so seems we need a new (or updated mitre) joint to do this.

[acbsdesign]

For bar to post cut we can use Saw cut-web, it will stay intelligent

[acbsdesign]

Dave,

Sorry, I see you have figured out the bar to post already.

For bar to bar cut, fastest way is may be using the Shorten command 
_astm4crbeamshort

Clash, measure, place UCS at object, put double icing on a cake ...to much of a hard work for a simple cut.

Not intelligent, but at least cut can be created fast and moved fast no matter where the UCS is.

https://autode.sk/3rreA4O 

[acbsdesign · Accepted solution]

Dave,

There is also a faster way to place the cuts, by using custom templates (sample dwg file attached).

I would copy the sample in the working model, and use the Create by Template command. 

Short screencast:

SQ. CUT AT POINT 

So now we have a 90 degree cut at a point we want with a click on the joint and pick a beam and a point.

If we need to move a point:

Moving a point of a cut 

Eeeehhhh, figured this out.

🙂

[Drawtech]

Thanks Ilko - nice idea using a custom joint, but it seems to have the same limitations as manual modelling.

I can't read your DWG as I'm still on AS2020 - but I get the idea and gave it a try.

However, I still need to snap to the intersection rather than endpoint, which doesn't always work on AS objects with an intersection or even apparent interseciton snap.

...and still not an updatable joint (auto) if you change the angle between the flats.

Also normal shortenings can be moved in the same way via their grip - so would be easy anyway if the intersecton snap were more reliable!

Nice thinking "outside the box" though and many thanks for your efforts trying to find a solution 🙂

[acbsdesign]

---

@Drawtech wrote:

Thanks Ilko - nice idea using a custom joint, but it seems to have the same limitations as manual modelling.

I can't read your DWG as I'm still on AS2020 - but I get the idea and gave it a try.

However, I still need to snap to the intersection rather than endpoint, which doesn't always work on AS objects with an intersection or even apparent interseciton snap.

...and still not an updatable joint (auto) if you change the angle between the flats.

Also normal shortenings can be moved in the same way via their grip - so would be easy anyway if the intersecton snap were more reliable!

Nice thinking "outside the box" though and many thanks for your efforts trying to find a solution 🙂

---

Not sure I understand the "I still need to snap to the intersection rather than endpoint, which doesn't always work on AS objects with an intersection or even apparent intersection snap."

The intersection is always there-we can see it, just pick a point. 

And yes, not changing if railings move, but at least cut is there, and easy to move. 4 or 6 points at a railing is a 10-20 seconds work.

We all agree it is far faster than placing ucs on object and shorten at ucs...

[Drawtech]

Yes we can "see" the intersection, but it will not snap to it using intersection or apparent intersection snaps.  ...occasionally it does but mostly not.

@dave_conibearmentioned this is better in AS2021, but still not perfect.

You could use nearest snap I suppose, but then it's not accurate and while probably near enough for fabrication if you zoom in first, it could make items different part numbers that should be the same.

...anyway, thanks all for your efforts 🙂

[Sebastian_Eiche]

hmmm with a bit playing around 😃
I tried something and it worked in my examples:

I used this and set the angle and all settings to "0" (there's a small gap, which has always be changed by using a negative "cut back" ?)
After this I do it on both beams:

If you now combine it to a custom joint, it worked for example on round profiles.
Not the best way, but maybe a beginning for more ideas

[Drawtech]

Hi Sebastian,

Now that's really thinking outside the box!

I would never have thought of using that joint ...and twice!

...and it so nearly works but not quite.

Works a charm if the angle is acute, but once past 90, it then uses the "wrong" edge and misses desired result.

Makes sense for the joint, but not for trimming at the intersection (i.e. the "far" corner rather than "near")

I could't get a negative clearance to work - the joint box just goes red.

https://autode.sk/3rAcvn6 

...an extraordinary effort!  ...such a shame it didn't quite get there.  🙂

[Drawtech]

Inspired, I just thought to try Saw cut web/flange applied twice in a similar way. 

...unfortunately it gives similar results, although with a more simple diaglog and the negative gap seems to work, but you would have to change it if you change the angle.

[acbsdesign]

Sebastian is the one, no question about that.

My favorite.

On another note, bridge detailing requires such brain gymnastics almost all the time, this is what keeps me alive.

I really don't see myself doing railings and stairs every single day, will probably switch to a part time job.

Different people, different views, and that's the beauty of it.

[Drawtech]

Absolutely Ilko, the more complex the more interesting. ...I like the phrase brain gymnastics 🙂

The railing I'm currently working on is on a bridge - nothing is level, lots of different drainage falls on the deck plates etc - you would like it 🙂

I'm still experimenting with your excellent ideas too.  The shortening in the user joint is good and I was just developing an idea - since the intersection snap is not working for me, I just applied a normal mitre joint with no weld, which then convenitently gives an endpoint snap where the intersection is.  The joint can stay in place and just add the extra square shortenings via your user joint.

If members are moved, the existing mitre joint gives new endpoint to snap to for moving the user joint creation point.  Seems about the best solution so far 🙂