Road Tool in Max

[chroma123]

I'd really really like a road tool implemented in 3d studio max. We're dealing with sloped roads with fills/cuts, intersections, curbs, etc in landscapes all the time. The whole archviz community is screaming for a road function, and currently we have to fall back to bad 3rd party plugins that doesn't really do the job dynamic enough.

Why is it so easy making roads in Cities:Skyline and not in 3d studio max? Autodesk, please remember that civil view is not enough. We're not working with Civil 3d. We're combining realism and engineering with creativity, so we need flexibility with the tool. A road tool where you can change parameters for just about everything, just like the stair tool. The road needs to conform/blend with the terrain with any given cut/fill angle/distance parameter, with a 0-100% priority between terrain conforming to road or road conforming to terrain.

Take a look here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxaozEap4-A

And you'd bet that when you finally have made that road somewhat realistic, your landscaper, client or engineer tells you that the road has to be moved a bit, or the slope has to be in another angle, or the road is coming in from the other direction because of some regulation or clients wish. Legitimate hours to invoice for, maybe, but we have got customers in the waiting line for the next projects coming up. Road is a massive black money hole. Projects with roads are always hard, and the same problem keeps showing up: A lack of a good road tool in 3d studio max.

If it's impossible to make, I'd like to hear the argument. Autodesk will go a huge step ahead of competitors with a tool like this.

I made this suggestion a year ago too. It got some kudos, but it's gone from this site now, don't know why it has been removed.

[dgorsman]

Have a look at Infraworks, especially when they're still messing around with where things go.

Yes, I know - yet *another* program.  Gotta have both a pickaxe and shovel though, trying to combine them into something good at both functions just ends up... bad.

[chroma123]

dgorsman, thanks for the idea, but I'm not very eager to dive into a program like Infraworks myself just to make roads for 3d studio max. We have other branches on the house that uses Infraworks, for totally different use. From time to time, we get projects from them, and roads from Infraworks are a joke. The meshes are so bad that it's better to use Infraworks road placements as a guide only, and remodel everything in 3d studio max. So sorry, this is not a good solution.

[chroma123]

Thank you all so far for giving votes up.

Keep them coming.

At this stage, I'd like to point out how nice the road tool menu could be.

As seen here in the menu from Cities Skyline, road types can be easily accessed. The different road types could be presets made from a common road class/object where you can change additional parameters for each of the elements on the roads (stripes and lines, symbols, numbers of lanes, street lights, width per lane, total width, etc) and the interaction with the terrain with cut and fill parameters, along with material slots for all of it.

Just take a look at roads in Cities Skyline and you'll know what I mean. It's modelling road on terrain made easy.

Back to Max. If you change the underlying terrain, you could hit the "update road" button for updated calculation. I understand it can be memory consuming to update interactively.

[Tupaia]

Isn't that something Max Creation Graph is destined to be used for?

I'm aware that not every coding task is done simpler or quicker with a graph paradigm, but that could be a case where it is.

I know MCG is not ICE, but Softimage ships with an example graph for playing with a simple road/bridge:

[chroma123]

So we should spend company (or free) hours to develop a road tool ourselves? Or should maybe Autodesk grasp the chance to gain a sale argument ahead of their competitors?

[Tupaia]

Whoever wants to, really.

You could hire someone, too. There's a whole community of coders and scripters out there. Even some idealists with too much time.

Or you could do it yourself, and sell it afterwards? Or keep it for yourself and have a competitive advantage? Depends on your situation.

(I developed some of curve and extrusion tools a few years ago for Softimage, and wanted to sell them, but then XSI was cancelled...)

That's the whole point of SDKs, or the MCG (or ICE, or FabricEngine)... give people the tools to create tools, and let the application developers concentrate on 'core' stuff, rather than 'high-level', specialized tools, which this looks like.

Nothing against your idea, which is good. However, if it's urgent, do you really want to wait for Autodesk?

I have no experience with MCG, just a little ICE. No idea yet what MCG is capable of. If it's any good, this could be an interesting project.

[chroma123]

I'm a creative guy with some knowledge in programming. I bought 3d studio max to be able to do tasks in there. From what you say, it sounds like Autodesk really don't want any native great tools, like what their competitors actually do, and that they just want to focus on ... what exactly? Keeping the program stable, which should be a pri task anyway?

I see your point, but at the same time I don't, because when did competition for good tools and functions get irrelevant to Autodesk?

[chroma123]

Also, developing tools are very often not a part of a company's business area. People might simply not be able to get green light to developed tools on behalf of their company. Should you make yourself a software company on the side? That strongly talks against "get your own essential tools developed to run in your current version of your 3d program" strategy. However, not a bad idea at all imo, but I do not agree with the thought that essential tools like this should be on the 3rd party developers shoulder.

Why don't Autodesk make specialized official addon-packages themselves to sell?

[Tupaia]

I (still) have no idea what 3ds Max product marketing is aiming at. It's strength, being a general purpose package, became it's weakness maybe. It wants too much. Fine 15 years ago, but CG tools became insanely sophisticated and specialized these days.

True, a road tool is surely something that fits in Max' visualization tool arsenal. But then the animation crowd is going to be grumpy again. Seen the idea '3dsmax Marketing should show other stuff than architectural'?

I lost my interest in Max 10 years ago, because I felt it stagnated, lost it's edge (went for Softimage). But since it's basic architecture stands the test of time (parametric modifier stack - brilliant!), and since it's UI is being reworked finally, I dare to hope again.

Yet I see the gigantic heap of work Autodesk needs to do to 'refurbish' that 21 year old beast, to make it fit for the 'modern times'. Just look at the 'top voted' ideas here - most of it is about general internal modernization, efficiency, consistency, workflow enhancements, or general stuff like fluids.

My personal opinion at this time: they would be wise to do just that.

[chroma123]

All the need for third party plugins seems like the obvious reason for the instabilities.

[mark_kauffman]

I like the idea, and I would use it often myself. I think MCG would be a great option.

One of the biggest issues will be integration with a terrain, specifically, seamlessly joining the roadway edges to the terrain. As is the case with Citites: Skyline and Infraworks, there is a dedicated engine dealing with the integration of  roadway, railway and other surface features. I suppose it is possible, but I suspect it would engineering heavy for integration with the existing toolset. 

[dgorsman]

@Tupaia - I see 3DSMAX less as being too general, but more at becoming focused at supporting visualization for the other Autodesk products like Inventor, Revit, and the AutoCAD vertical products (have a look in the Inventor board for the recurring "Friday pictures" threads).  People coming from the different industries will be doing a lot of different things e.g. Inventor users are more focused on high-quality stills and animated moving parts, and would find roads and trees useless.

[Lucas_3D]

Hi Guys, great conversation here!
I've often found that I have a wish list in the area that I am currently having problems with, in the last couple of years it has been in quick road and building generation. So I have been learning MAXScript and have written a few solutions for myself, and am sharing some scripts also.
In some ways I looked longingly at Cities: Skyline and wonder why I can't use a tool like that in Max. But in another way I see it as an opportunity for all of us to innovate and create something new. 
The program can do so much and solutions are just a series of problems to solve, for instance:

Road intersections and fillets - I wondered on and off for a year on how to do it, and 1 weekend a solution came to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmxPPyuyDzY
Building Creation - A solution for creating dynamic and simple buildings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeKCi4Pz0lg
Building and street articulation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r9aK0zSbjc

One more thing that really annoyed me was having to grade terrain, I would actively try to avoid jobs like that. Simon Moir showed an amazing technique which I have been recreating as an automated script, It includes interactive cuts/fills, roads, contor creation and grading metrics:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEHZKZclulY
Thanks for letting me drop these links, please get in touch if we can help each other evolve what's possible in 3ds Max!

[chroma123]

Hi @Lucas_3D. Thanks for sharing your solutions. In the last link, in the script you're currently working on, is that road tool going to work on slopes, with cut/fills and with intersections?

[Lucas_3D]

Thanks @chroma123 I tried that out and yes. Because everything is live in the stack, I just add a standard subdivide and conform - heres the video ontop of a 'terrain' (just noise modifier), I change the seed of the noise to show the dynamic system.

[chroma123]

@Lucas_3D, with cuts/fills or some kind of other adaptation/gradation to the terrain? I'm very interested in this.

[Lucas_3D]

Yes the road conforms to the terrain beneath it, cuts, fills, gradation, it's all the same to the system. What is more interesting is getting the road to inform the terrains cuts and fills and pull some numbers out about the grading for that specific road layout.

[chroma123]

I see. I've been thinking about developing something like this myself, but I've prioritized improving on a custom cladding tool first. Road tool was kind of the next thing... But now that you're on it: I will gladly buy your script when it's out, or even test it if you need someone to test. Anyway let me know when you've solved the grading you're mentioning.

[Lucas_3D]

I've just completed 'Road Creator Pro'
It creates quick, simple roads, line markings and customisable street trees and street furniture.
It also generates indicative building footprint layouts and has a conform to terrain feature.
More info on my website and I've attached the promo video below: