Using "Reset" on "Customize User Interface" under "Keyboard" crashes Max 2017&18

[CatalystC1]

Could someone confirm on either Max 2017 (SP3) or  2018 (or both), that using the "Reset" described in the title crashes the program?

The same "Reset" function seems to work fine on Max 2016, just not on '17 or '18.

To reproduce:

1) Start Max 2017/2018

2) From top menus select "Customize" > "Customize User Interface"

3) Under the default dialog "Keyboard", press "Reset"

4) Confirm reset by pressing "Yes"

5) 3ds Max has stopped working repeatedly on one tested machine, using either Max 2018 or 2017 (SP3)

This bug seems to have been introduced sometime on version 2017, as on prior 2016 version the same error cannot be reproduced. Or user has some extra custom functionality installed on the installs of '17 and '18, which is interfering with "Reset" (this is unlikely, as the installs of all of these are rather fresh, with minimal additional scripts/plugins installed).

[Unlisted.co]

I'm getting this too!

Any help? It's incredibly annoying.

Nathan.

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @CatalystC1 and @Unlisted.co and welcome to the community,

I cannot seem to repro this on 2018 or 2017, though my version of 2017 is the SF version.  I don't think SP3 has this issue, but you should update regardless if possible.  I recorded a video showing my going through both here, embedded at bottom of the post.  

So, I should ask the standard questions so that we can talk and see how to figure this out.  I have some below, would you both please answer them?

1) Does the crash allow you to submit a CER log?  If so, please input your email address and I can look them up.  I did a search but I don't see any with your forum email addresses on them.  

2) Which version of Windows is this?  Home or Pro?  Which service pack/update of Windows?  

3) What plugins and scripts do you have installed?  

4) Do you have group security policies or real time monitoring of AV or malware applications that might be denying changes to the settings folder?  Do you have access to write to the settings folder(s)?   C:\Users\%username%\AppData\Local\Autodesk\3dsMax\2017 - 64bit

5) What language are you running Max and Windows in?  Do you have any special characters in your windows username? 

My test:

Best Regards,

[CatalystC1]

@Alfred.DeFlaminis 

Hi, nice to hear you tried to repro this.

(Just to clarify, I was (and am) indeed running Max 2017 service pack 3)

1) I believe I sent a CER when this first happened, but I don't think I remembered to type in my email, as I just wanted to get back to what I was working on. I didn't get another CER -dialog after the first crash.

2) Using Windows 10, latest updates (I believe I have the 'creators' -update as well, could theoretically have something to do with this.. doubtful though)

3) My 2017 install has VRay evaluation, but nothing else. 2018 has the lately released updated version of Arnold, but nothing else. I think I might have dropped some (~2-5) MCG scripts on one or both of 2017 and 2018. Doubtful these would be the cause, as it's highly unlikely me and @Unlisted.co would have the same MCG's.. I'm not sure how to check which ones I have.

4) No group security policies, this is my home office computer. I do have Eset FW/AV running, however, testing this on 2017, with Eset FW and AV turned off did not help at all, still crashes. I am running a user that has admin rights.

Interestingly though, I did have some kind of windows problem with the Akamai Netsession -client just awhile back, where windows logged in to Event Viewer, that twice or thrice a day the Akamai Netsession (which Autodesk, among others uses to deliver software to end-users, I believe) would take application window focus, causing any fullscreen apps, games etc, I was running to minimize and be placed on windows desktop instead. And the Event Viewer logged that the cause of the problem was inadequate rights to write to some \User\ -directory that the Netsession client was using. I tried to fix this by changing the rights and requirements for that directory, but did not have any success, and wound up uninstalling Netsession client. The problem has not returned since (not sure if the latest versions of Max/Mudbox have reinstalled it for software download delivery) - This could be a potential problem in this case too though. I'm not sure how to 'add' to my current admin rights so that this wouldn't be the potential problem, as my user has admin rights already..

Looking at the C:\Users\%username%\AppData\Local\Autodesk\3ds Max 2017\ -directory's (no "64bit" in the folder name for me there, even if it is the 64 bit version..) Properties -> Security - shows that all the users on this computer have all 'allow' -checkboxes ticked, except for "special permissions", which cannot even be changed through the 'edit'-button.

5) This is Windows 10 in english, I am using the finnish keyboard characters, so this means that I have öäå directly accessible on my keyboard. Max's customize user interface -dialog interprets pressing these keys as the same characters, that I believe people using english/usa keyboard mappings get, so characters like ' and ´ and ]  <- those are the characters the dialog shows if I press them to be assigned to keyboard shortcuts. If I write out the keyboard shortcut text file, it shows the same characters as saved for what ever actions they are assigned to.

I feel sorry I didn't sign the CER -report, but, can't redo that anymore now, or can I somehow?

Please ask if I can be of any more assistance. I love getting these kinds of nagging things fixed. (I did bypass my need for the feature by using 2016, but this is a lousy workaround in the longer run, ofc.)

One thing that comes to my mind about this whole thing, is that what I have done for the longest time with different max versions when I first start using them, has been to load my old keyboard shortcuts, and then save them as the new ones for the new version. So, I could imagine this causing some problems? Might be something @Unlisted.co has done.

This could be tested through a fresh install of max 2017 or 2018, but I'm not quite ready to do that, I will though, if that is the only way to get this moving forward.

-Heikki

[Alfred.DeFlaminis · Accepted solution]

Thank you for all the information @CatalystC1,

I haven't seen this issue come up before, so I appreciate all that info as it helps to understand the problem a bit better from my end.  

1) It's ok, no problem.  I know you'd mentioned it doesn't bring up another on subsequent crashes, so we'll just have to try other things.  If you do get another one in the future, please just put the email address and I can see where the problem originates.  Thanks!

2) We do often see some minor issues after a major update for W10, but I don't have any theories or information which would suggest yet that this is a result of the Creator's update.  Right now I think it's probably not.  It's helps to know which version regardless though. 

3) I doubt it's related to Vray, Arnold, or the MCG's.  I have vray demo on my machine for the random Vray questions as well as Arnold for 2017 and 2018, so we can count those out.

4) Thanks for trying that.   I see... insufficient rights to write to a folder would potentially cause this issue.  If it was trying to write the keyboard file and couldn't, you might see a crash.  Would it be possible to paste that error message into a comment in this thread?  We should look closer at that.   I'm not 100% user if not using Akamai would cause this problem, but the event viewer error message itself seems related.  Do you see the same problem if you run Max in admin mode?   If it still crashes in that mode, please turn it back off.  

If you were to rename the folder at C:\Users\%username%\AppData\Local\Autodesk\3ds Max 2017\ temporarily, do you see the same problems with the reset function after restarting Max?   If so, close Max and delete the new one and rename back the old one, please.   More info in this article about resetting user settings.  The UI was updated in 2017 so loading in the 2016 keyboard settings *may* have caused a problem.  Generally speaking the keyboard settings are meant for the same version of Max, so it's not really guaranteed that they can be loaded between versions perfectly.  Given all the changes to the UI it might be related.  

5) The problem might be a unicode issue.  If you're running Windows in English but your keyboard reset was expecting different characters that might do it.  It's a guess, but considering your obvious mastery of English what happens if you set the characters to English in Windows as a test.  Does it still happen?  Or, if you have an English keyboard laying around does it also happen on that?  You probably have to reboot after changing character sets in Windows before trying Max.  It's not a solution if this works, but it gives me more to go on.  

There's no need to do a fresh install unless the lack of Akamai somehow causes this.  But for now even resetting the user settings is like a fresh install so let's not burn any time doing reinstallation of Max for the time being.  Can you please try the things above for me first?  Thanks very much!

Best Regards,

[CatalystC1]

@Alfred.DeFlaminis Hi, I took the time to test some. Looks like this crashing problem is with the loaded, previous version's keyboard configurations.

I uninstalled Max 2017, removed the \Program Files\Autodesk\2017\ -folder, as well as under c:\users\ and so on. Reinstalled - and then noticed that the "Customize System Paths" - dialog *still* somehow had my previous paths, and the software was still loading my configuration automatically. Pressing the "Reset" still crashed this new web-installer based 2017 (so no SP3?).

I renamed the directory where I have my configuration files, and uninstalled, and removed the folders and reinstalled again. This time the custom keyboard/color etc. configurations were not loaded, and pressing the "Reset" -button did NOT crash max anymore. Neither does it crash if I set one new shortcut, save the config, load the config, and press "Reset". BUT, if I then load my old keyboard configuration, and close the dialog, and reopen it, and press "Reset" - that's a crash to the desktop.

I have attached a .kbdx -keyboard config file, that should be valid to load and use in 2017, but after which loading and closing the dialog, pressing the "Reset"-button crashes Max. At least as tested in 2018, 2017 SP3, and 2017 (base version, "Product Version 19.0"? if this is the version that the webinstaller installs?).

-Heikki

[CatalystC1]

..Also, sorry, I totally missed your previous message - for some reason I did not get an email notification of it (or somehow skipped over it), and had not refreshed this thread's tab in my browser when replying.

Uhoh, and so as described above, went through with the reinstalls. Oh well, at least I think that narrowed the problem down nicely. 

-Heikki

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @CatalystC1,

Sometimes I don't get confirmation emails too, I think the web server get's really heavy once in a while.  It's a real problem because if I miss one then that person thinks I just disappeared on them.  (I would never do that.)  So, I totally understand.  

Thanks for the confirmation here.  I didn't know for sure if loading 2016 settings into 2017 would cause the problem, but given the vast amount of changes to the UI it's not unheard of.  I can't get this to crash though on SF 1.1.   You might try downloading it here.  It's possible that it won't address the issue however, but since I cannot repro it was worth a shot.  (Or if you are on subscription, get the Update1 SF instead on Manage.Autodesk.com.)  Would you mind trying that for me, please?  Thanks very much for your detailed messages and for the communication!  

I tried to load the preset, close the window, and then reset and I was not able to get this to crash on me.  Tried in Win 7 and Win 10.  Strange...  I went ahead and saved out them from mine after the crash didn't happen.  Maybe you could try loading this in?  Thanks very much for your time!

Best Regards,

[CatalystC1]

@Alfred.DeFlaminis

Okay, I tested your .kbdx -file on 2017 SP3, works just fine, no problems.

But, I'm having unknown problems with getting the 2017.1 update or 1.1 SP installed. I'm afraid I'll have to bail out of testing this: I've now uninstalled 2017 four times and installed it thrice (with SP3 too) in the past few days, and when ever I install either the 2017.1 update or 2017.1.1 SP, I get this error:
"DLL <C:\Program Files\..\FileLink.dlu> failed to initialize properly - not loading" and then "3ds Max failed to start" - And I'm totally at loss as to why that's happening.

I had everything setup for 2017, SP3, .1 and 1.1 SP earlier, before I did the first uninstall, but now I can't put it together for whatever the reason. I fortunately have fine SSD's and fast internet connection to download everythig, but unfortunately this is just taking too much time, I'm sure you'll understand why I have to let this go..

Anyways, too bad we couldn't catch this one properly: let's just hope it's a thing that affects only few people, with their peculiar older .kbdx -files they keep dragging on from the previous versions. 🙂

Cheers!

-Heikki

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @CatalystC1,

That error is happening because there is an invalid file path in your PluginSettings.ini.  I have more information here.  I'm sorry you had to install it 4 times, I would have helped right off on the 1st time.  I understand though, thanks for the information and for trying.  If you change your mind, I'm here for you.

Best Regards,

[CatalystC1 · Accepted solution]

@Alfred.DeFlaminis ah, that easily fixed the .dll -problem, thank you.

I tested 2017.1.1 SF, but that did not help with the problem, your .KBDX file works fine, but mine does not.

I was about to type a message asking is there anything else I can do, but decided to reread your messages, and realized I had not properly tested this one:

"5) The problem might be a unicode issue.  If you're running Windows in English but your keyboard reset was expecting different characters that might do it.  It's a guess, but considering your obvious mastery of English what happens if you set the characters to English in Windows as a test.  Does it still happen?  Or, if you have an English keyboard laying around does it also happen on that?  You probably have to reboot after changing character sets in Windows before trying Max.  It's not a solution if this works, but it gives me more to go on."

And lo and behold, this was the solution!

If I change the layout from "Finnish keyboard" to "English keyboard" (luckily doesn't require reboot or other operations, this is quick to do, see attached image for the 'setup' -dialog), load up Max, repeat the usual steps, and the reset does work.

Changing the keyboard setting back to 'Finnish' will not break the reset button after this, it will stay working through the whole windows session, and only after a reboot, will the same issue come back again.

Now the question on my mind is: why did 2016 not exhibit this behaviour?

Anyways, thank you! And sorry for missing the 5):th point you had made earlier on. I'm happy that it solved the issue, and offers a workaround for those of us on non english keyboards and legacy (?) .KBDX -files.

-Heikki

[CatalystC1]

> Now the question on my mind is: why did 2016 not exhibit this behaviour?

Oh, but it does. I did further testing, and I can get 2016 to crash the same way too. (I think the install of 2016 I tried this on earlier didn't have my keyboard setup loaded, and I did not suspect the .KBDX -file back when I tested this, now that I checked that it is loaded, it does indeed crash.)

-Heikki

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @CatalystC1,

Thank you very much for the update here.  You do a great job documenting and I really appreciate that.  

I had a feeling that might be it.  There is a problem when Windows is in English but keyboards are in another language.  From what I understand it's an underlying problem with unicode and it does come up from time to time.  I do have notes of this kind of thing happening back to before 2010.  The only working fix that I know of is to use the English keyboard settings or use Windows in Finnish to match the unicode settings of the keyboard.  Thank you for the informative updates here.  

Best Regards,