Persistent modeling crashes with 2017

[Anonymous]

I've been giving Max 2017 another go since installing SP3. Unfortunately, I'm still seeing lots of random modeling crashes. Mostly when using snapping in subobject mode in orthographic view. Max will freeze for a few seconds and crash, but it allows me to save a recovery file, so no work gets lost.

Still, it is deadly for the workflow.

I've been sending reports every time and making sure these are marked with my email address. Can someone at the Autodesk end look into them and let me know what they think?

[alexnode]

I didn't have any crashes today (6 hours so far) , after disabling the view cube. Titan X - max 2017 - latest drivers from Nvidia - .DX11.. i will keep you updated. 

Still have display problems and objects disappearing in high quality though.  

[info_1]

Ok never mind all that with precision X - It's still sort of jacked up and crashy.  I think it seemed like it was more stable because it wasn't 11:45 pm and I didn't have 3 different clients waiting for their renderings.

One thing I did figure out is that things look better if you change the maintain frames per second spinner to from 10 to 1 or 2 in the viewport global settings panel.

Also for monitoring gpu stats I'm using GPU-Z.

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @Anonymous,

I certainly won't advise that people mess with their voltages and clock speeds.  For Alex he was getting a crash or two in Photoshop too, for what it's worth.  I'm not in a position to be able to test on a Titan.  Chances are it's not the same problem that info_1 was able to resolve with underclocking.

Did you try turning off the viewcube and DX9?  I'd love to collect more information.  There is a problem with the viewcube for some users that can lead to modeling crashes, I recently learned.

Best Regards,

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @alexnode,

Ok!  So, the viewcube might be at the center of some of these problems. Now I wonder if Jacek's issues were also related...

Is it possible to demo the objects disappearing issue?  This may be due to system units being out of whack.  If you can screencast it or something I'll move that post to a new thread and we can tackle that issue.  

6 hours in DX11 with no crashes does sound like a big improvement.  Please, don't mess with over/under clocking I don't think it's a great idea.  Betrand is right that it shouldn't be necessary.  

Best Regards,

[info_1]

Turns out I didn't sort anything out, it just seemed like it for a while - The overclocking software did keep the GPU temp in the 60s rather that 70s and up to 82 by letting the fan speed go higher.   Changing the viewport frame rate from 10 to 1 or 2 seemed to help more than anything else.

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Thanks for the updated info @info_1, 

Might be best to leave it be, I would hate if you damaged your card. Alex has reported some stability with the viewcube off, that might be worth a shot.  

Best Regards,

[alexnode]

No ! It just crashed after trying to snap a spline point to a vertex. 

I am not sure exactly what is going on. The only consistency so far is that my crashes are related with snapping and when attaching editable polys. But still can't say for sure.   

[pokoy]

Thanks for keeping the thread going, Alfred.

First thing I do since the View Cube was introduced is to disable it on all Max installs in our office, it's been known for slowing down the viewport since day one. So it's definitely not the cause of the glitches in our case.

Using DX9 or DX11 could probably help but it would make using 2017 pointless for us since our modelers switched to 2017 because of the faster viewports. I don't think the speed improvements are also available when using DX9 or DX11...?

I was able to catch several viewport redraw problems (no response from the viewports, 'resolved' only through restarting Max) and a few short freezes for no apparent reason while looking over one of my modeler's shoulder for, all of this in less than 10 minutes. The graphics card used in this PC is a GTX 1060, I would need to look up the driver version.

It's really sad that one of the main 'selling points' of 2017 - a significantly faster viewport - is not working reliably. I hope the product team realizes how many users are affected and how bad it is for the app's reputation.

[Anonymous]

Hey Alfred. I haven't yet done these things because I'm back in 2016 for my current project, but I will at the next opportunity. I have to say, though, I'm actually one of the three Max users who quite like the viewcube and use it a fair bit. 

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @alexnode and @pokoy,

I hit a wall sometimes but I won't walk away from this.  I have to step out for a bit sometimes to work on other issues and wait for responses to my questions internally but I'm here.  It seems like turning off the viewcube is at the least slowing your driver crashes which is great news.  

The thing that bugs me about your issue Pokoy is that when the drivers crash, Max typically goes down.  The viewports don't usually get wonky and menus still work, etc.  It's a hard crash.  Are you sure it's not heat related?  If you take the side off the machine temporarily, do these viewport issues persist?  Thank you all for bearing with me as I unpeel the onion.

EDIT:  My email was being crafted when you latest reply came in @Anonymous.  I know a few people who love the viewcube and I think you can continue using it but it may have an issue or two that needs to be addressed.  If you don't find any stability increase with it disabled by all means go with it, but yesterday Jon Bell and I discovered evidence in a case that it might be responsible for driver crashes and I just wanted to see if it helped your situation at all.  I know it's frustrating and I wish there was a magic bullet but if I can get more confirmation that the viewcube is actually central to driver crashes I think it will help toward fixing the issue.  It's a stop gap and temporary but it's worth trying if stability is a problem.  If you still crash a lot then you can put it back on, but so far in a couple cases I've seen fewer driver crashes with it disabled.  There is still the modeling/snapping crashes but as I mentioned one of them has been fixed totally and will be in a future update.  

 
Best Regards,

[info_1]

Hey Alfred-

The crashes that I've continued to have - I think there were 3 or 4 crash reports from my end today - are where max just freezes, The graphics card has been well below 60C. the high temp cutoff of the card is 82. So it's not a heat thing.

The problem happens right when max starts and a lot of the time and I can't get the file to open without crashing, I have to restart the computer before I can open the file and set the viewport to standard and flat color - that's what I'm doing now.

Thanks

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @info_1,

There is an issue which can cause issues like this when opening scenes from older versions due to "Improve Quality Progressively".  This thread has some more info on it as well as a workaround.  Is this what is happening to you?  If not, I have another suggestion at the bottom of this post. 

Your last 8 crashes however are listed as D3D11 and is a Max problem without a doubt.  The more info on what you are doing when you submit the report the better. In the system currently there are no associations between your d3d11 issue and the link above.  If Spacefrogs script in the above link stops your crashing, then that is really great because this d3d11 issue is the same one that Alex, Betrand, and others have.  Despite you all being in one place in this thread with a common issue, there are not many unique reports of this crash. 

Please submit your crash reports (Bertrand, Pokoy, Alex, info) so I can track the modules crashing and see if there is improvement in any of the suggestions.  I know you are frustrated and I think it's understandable, but thank you for bearing with me and continuing to update the thread.  

Info_1, the last thing I'd like to ask is if the next time Max won't open, can you check your task manager and see if you have multiple or leftover 3dsmax.exe processes in memory even though Max is closed?  If so, putting the attached script in your Scripts/Startup folder will fix this issue.  

EDIT: phrasing.

Best Regards,

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello all,

I wanted to follow up on a couple things.  First, the object disappearing issue reported in here was related to VrayBlendMtl, so if you are finding objects disappearing it's likely due to a BlendMtl. 

The time you spent filling me in on these issues and helping me understand them was very important for me and I thank you for taking the time out of your day to do so.  I am grateful that you were all willing to work with me on getting up to speed so I can fill out proper tracker reports.  I can't say exactly when the update will roll out, but it's relatively soon.

Lastly I wanted to mention that it's been discovered by another user on the forum that running things like EVGA precision (GPUZ, etc) while 3ds Max is open can cause max to be slow and/or crash.  (As well as UDK4)  For this reason, if you have monitoring software for your GPU, you might try to disable it while working in 3ds Max to see if that helps with some of your issues until the next update arrives.

Thank you for your time and best regards,

[pokoy]

Hi Alfred, we are getting 2-4 crashes a day and what's worse, some of them happen just when you try to save a file or Autoback kicks in so you're left with no file saved. I've submitted a few crashes in the last days that happened upon saving so you may see something from the data sent by the CERs.

We're going back to 2016, there's no way we can afford losing work and valuable time. Considering the high number of people having similar problems 2017 is by far the least stable from all the versions I've used to date. Knowing how hesitant max users are to switch to the most recent version the number of users having the same problems would be much higher if everyone were using 2017.

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @pokoy,

Yes, I check the crash logs of the 5 users here every couple days and I have three of them printed out on my cubicle wall.  It's too bad that now is when you are switching back but I understand.  The fix for your modeling crashes is almost rolled out too.  I cannot argue with any of you about the problems you have experienced, I know it's real and very frustrating.  I wonder if I could convince you to leave 1 machine on 2017 at least so you can test out what I'm writing below.  

The good news is that Autodesk has rolled out Update1 which has 55 fixes and an EXT1 built in that contains some cool new features and we are doing it very soon.  I haven't formally announced this yet on the forums so you 5 are literally the first to know, but here is a sneak peek. Great stuff in there. I sincerely hope this alleviates the pain I know you 5 in particular have felt.  The blended box mapping and data channels are awesome new additions to 3ds Max and the possibilities are really expansive, especially for plugin makers.  

Best Regards,

[pokoy]

Thanks for the quick feedback, Alfred - good timing, I've just installed PU1 on all machines. We'll stay in 2017 and see if the problems are resolved for us, I'll keep you updated. Thanks again!

[Anonymous]

Hey Alfred,

I'm about to install the new update for 2017. Can you confirm that the modeling/snapping fixes are included. I don't seem to see anything about this in the readme. Maybe I missed it.

EDIT: Never mind. Just found it in the readme.

[alexnode]

!!!EDITED !!! I had my first crash while i was selecting objects. Not sure why. 

I am working for 4 hours with the new update and I didn't have a crash. I am not instancing and snapping much yet though. 

[pokoy]

We just had a crash, not directly while moving a vertex, but while exiting isolation mode while in subobject/vertex mode, with vertex snapping enabled. Partial success, we're down from 3-4 crashes a day to 1. But who knows if it's related to the original problem...

Alfred, I've sent the CER an hour ago or so, maybe it helps.

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello all, 

Thank you for the updates, I appreciate it.  I've looked up your logs and already submitted new info into the tracker for currently unfixed issues.  It's disappointing (to us both I'm sure) that there is still the occasional crash.  

@pokoy, your crash is happening in an MS .dll called Vcruntime140.dll.  I am submitting more info into the tracker about this .dll to be further looked at.  

@alexnode yours is still in D3D11.  Unfortunately, this particular issue wasn't part of the update.  You can use D3D9 to get around it for the time being at the cost of a few viewport features.  You had 2 Nitrious issues before, but now you have 1.  It still needs to be addressed.  

Best Regards,