2024 Color Picker

[open-range]

The color picker in Max 2024 has changed. It's driving me kind of mental. 

Selecting the top buttons Scene or Display is confusing. Regardless of which is selected the spinners do not seem to work independent from each other. For instance, adjust value spinner and then saturation spinner gets changed also. Certain values will not stay put. Like Saturation will accept 188 and 255 but not anything in between. Weird and frustrating.

Does anyone know a way to get the old simpler and better (imo) color picker back in Max 2024?

[open-range]

The color picker in Max 2024 has changed. It's driving me kind of mental. 

Selecting the top buttons Scene or Display is confusing. Regardless of which is selected the spinners do not seem to work independent from each other. For instance, adjust value spinner and then saturation spinner gets changed also. Certain values will not stay put. Like Saturation will accept 188 and 255 but not anything in between. Weird and frustrating.

Does anyone know a way to get the old simpler and better (imo) color picker back in Max 2024?

[open-range]

OCIO. 🙂

[open-range]

OCIO. 🙂

[mar_piotrowski]

facepalm.

obviously 255*(5/255)^2.2

[mar_piotrowski]

facepalm.

obviously 255*(5/255)^2.2

[dean_punchard]

I gotta agree with @open-range 

Currently I may have a black material set to 1,1,1 and a dark grey material set to 10,10,10

My understanding and experience is that these values will now be rounded down to 0,0,0

I understand that 1,1,1 should now be 15,15,15 (or similar), and 10,10,10 should be 25,25,25

However this is a lot of work to re-do any libraries or past projects. And what happens when these updates happen, do we have to then change all the values again?

I'm so confused with these changes. I kind of understand the principles behind it, it'll give us better control over the dark colours, but in theory how do you go from Max 2023 to 2024, in a way that doesn't require hours of re-working files.

Maybe I'm missing something?

And don't get me wrong, I love the fact Max is taking colour management seriously, but until I'm confident in how it works, and how it's going to work for the next few years, then I'm kinda stuck in the old way of doing things.

[dean_punchard]

I gotta agree with @open-range 

Currently I may have a black material set to 1,1,1 and a dark grey material set to 10,10,10

My understanding and experience is that these values will now be rounded down to 0,0,0

I understand that 1,1,1 should now be 15,15,15 (or similar), and 10,10,10 should be 25,25,25

However this is a lot of work to re-do any libraries or past projects. And what happens when these updates happen, do we have to then change all the values again?

I'm so confused with these changes. I kind of understand the principles behind it, it'll give us better control over the dark colours, but in theory how do you go from Max 2023 to 2024, in a way that doesn't require hours of re-working files.

Maybe I'm missing something?

And don't get me wrong, I love the fact Max is taking colour management seriously, but until I'm confident in how it works, and how it's going to work for the next few years, then I'm kinda stuck in the old way of doing things.

[inafaracutieiT9P25]

We've all known from previous threads that the color picker in 2024 is an actual improvement because we already posted about it.
At the current state you can't have an actual production company with hundreds of render artists go around with a notebook with correlating values for 15, 21, 36, 43, and so on, or fixes for Pantone colors that autocorrect themselves on paste, in the hex area, that when they create a new material in this Colorpicker (that Chaos has to fix on their part with a better precision),end up with the same look and feel instead of Black.
Maybe you as single use are not bothered and you have time to spare. But in the real world the client wants when you work on multiple assets that you deliver fast and the look be the same, he does not have time for your explanations or correlating values notebook.

When I input 10 it should stay 10, I don't care if its not the same as the old correlating value(it has better precision), we want that value to STICK and not turn into a bloody 0. I don't want to change to a new color space workflow, imagine doing this for previous projects you need and update to like a year or so when a client only wants to add a new part or what ever fix, who has time for that who will bother taking the time to making sure you make the same looking shader or color . I know that when I open an old scene in max 2024 the values are converted to the correlating ones so the render does not change, but the moment i touch that slider........

Max 2024 was tested internally since it was lauched to look for bugs, each update made it better, but this new feature with the colorpicker breaks V-ray so we can't move forward, for now.

here is the Chaos Groups thread Marcin, maybe you can stir stuff up there.
https://forums.chaos.com/forum/v-ray-for-3ds-max-forums/v-ray-for-3ds-max-problems/1183061-3ds-max-2...

From my POV this thread was closed since Cuneyt.ozdas kindly explained what was actually going on. The ball is in Chaos Groups side of the field now.

[inafaracutieiT9P25]

We've all known from previous threads that the color picker in 2024 is an actual improvement because we already posted about it.
At the current state you can't have an actual production company with hundreds of render artists go around with a notebook with correlating values for 15, 21, 36, 43, and so on, or fixes for Pantone colors that autocorrect themselves on paste, in the hex area, that when they create a new material in this Colorpicker (that Chaos has to fix on their part with a better precision),end up with the same look and feel instead of Black.
Maybe you as single use are not bothered and you have time to spare. But in the real world the client wants when you work on multiple assets that you deliver fast and the look be the same, he does not have time for your explanations or correlating values notebook.

When I input 10 it should stay 10, I don't care if its not the same as the old correlating value(it has better precision), we want that value to STICK and not turn into a bloody 0. I don't want to change to a new color space workflow, imagine doing this for previous projects you need and update to like a year or so when a client only wants to add a new part or what ever fix, who has time for that who will bother taking the time to making sure you make the same looking shader or color . I know that when I open an old scene in max 2024 the values are converted to the correlating ones so the render does not change, but the moment i touch that slider........

Max 2024 was tested internally since it was lauched to look for bugs, each update made it better, but this new feature with the colorpicker breaks V-ray so we can't move forward, for now.

here is the Chaos Groups thread Marcin, maybe you can stir stuff up there.
https://forums.chaos.com/forum/v-ray-for-3ds-max-forums/v-ray-for-3ds-max-problems/1183061-3ds-max-2...

From my POV this thread was closed since Cuneyt.ozdas kindly explained what was actually going on. The ball is in Chaos Groups side of the field now.

[mar_piotrowski]

should I assume that in "an actual production company with hundreds of render artists" that you mentioned there is nobody able to (in the worst case) flip the switch to "Unmanaged"? I do not believe that.

In "the real world" among "hundreds of render artists" there is one that will update their global OCIO config or 3dsMax settings to sort things out in case something is not to his liking.

[mar_piotrowski]

should I assume that in "an actual production company with hundreds of render artists" that you mentioned there is nobody able to (in the worst case) flip the switch to "Unmanaged"? I do not believe that.

In "the real world" among "hundreds of render artists" there is one that will update their global OCIO config or 3dsMax settings to sort things out in case something is not to his liking.

[cuneyt.ozdas]

Ok I see that there is common misunderstanding about the numbers and colors. Let me try to clarify a bit more.

Those numbers you were typing into the 2023 color picker for the VRay material (for example (5,5,5) as mentioned above)...

Nobody knew those numbers except for you and the old 2023 color picker. Not even the Vray material in 2023 ever saw those numbers. Only you and the old color picker were calling that particular color with those numbers. VRay doesn't know that color with those numbers, Max scene file doesn't save those colors with those numbers, windows or your monitor doesn't show that color using those numbers, Photoshop doesn't call that color you picked with those numbers. Those numbers were created just for the old color picker and lost forever when you click the OK button in the color picker. 

Forget about those numbers. It was just the old color picker and you.

When you typed (5,5,5) in 2023 VRay material, the number that the color swatch was seeing was (0.02, 0.02, 0.02), VRay material was thinking that you wanted the (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) color. That's the value saved in the max file, not 5. When that color reached the vray material, (5,5,5) was long gone, as soon as you clicked the OK button of the color picker, that color was known as (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) thereafter.

Proof: In 2023 set one of the Vray mtl colors to (5,5,5). Right click on the color swatch, copy. Paste that color in a color swatch of the physical material. Click that color swatch and see that numbers are 0.02 (yes 2023 had two color pickers, one floating point, one integer and that was bad, unified in 2024). 

That (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) never changes. If you open that old 2023 scene in 2024, that color is still the same color and it's still defined as (0.02, 0.02, 0.02), identical to 2023 to the last bit (32-bit float). If you open that that color in 2024 color picker, in the "scene" column you'll see that 0.02 number. That color's name internally is (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) always was and still is. 

Thus, there is no need for conversion.

2024 color picker now shows how that color is internally defined in the "scene" column. But also, for your convenience, it shows the standard sRGB integer values which are (43, 43, 43) so that you can copy/paste values between applications etc as Photoshop (and rest of the World) knows that color as (43 43 43) if described in 8bit integers.

Anything describing that color in floating point knows that color as (0.02, 0.02, 0.02). 
(vray, max scene, physical material, new color picker's scene column, etc).

Anything describing that color in 8bit integer sRGB knows that color as (43, 43, 43).
(new color picker, photoshop, your monitor, HTML parsers, new color picker's display column, etc).

It was just the old color picker, during its short lifespan, called that color as (5,5,5).

Hope this helps.

[cuneyt.ozdas]

Ok I see that there is common misunderstanding about the numbers and colors. Let me try to clarify a bit more.

Those numbers you were typing into the 2023 color picker for the VRay material (for example (5,5,5) as mentioned above)...

Nobody knew those numbers except for you and the old 2023 color picker. Not even the Vray material in 2023 ever saw those numbers. Only you and the old color picker were calling that particular color with those numbers. VRay doesn't know that color with those numbers, Max scene file doesn't save those colors with those numbers, windows or your monitor doesn't show that color using those numbers, Photoshop doesn't call that color you picked with those numbers. Those numbers were created just for the old color picker and lost forever when you click the OK button in the color picker. 

Forget about those numbers. It was just the old color picker and you.

When you typed (5,5,5) in 2023 VRay material, the number that the color swatch was seeing was (0.02, 0.02, 0.02), VRay material was thinking that you wanted the (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) color. That's the value saved in the max file, not 5. When that color reached the vray material, (5,5,5) was long gone, as soon as you clicked the OK button of the color picker, that color was known as (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) thereafter.

Proof: In 2023 set one of the Vray mtl colors to (5,5,5). Right click on the color swatch, copy. Paste that color in a color swatch of the physical material. Click that color swatch and see that numbers are 0.02 (yes 2023 had two color pickers, one floating point, one integer and that was bad, unified in 2024). 

That (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) never changes. If you open that old 2023 scene in 2024, that color is still the same color and it's still defined as (0.02, 0.02, 0.02), identical to 2023 to the last bit (32-bit float). If you open that that color in 2024 color picker, in the "scene" column you'll see that 0.02 number. That color's name internally is (0.02, 0.02, 0.02) always was and still is. 

Thus, there is no need for conversion.

2024 color picker now shows how that color is internally defined in the "scene" column. But also, for your convenience, it shows the standard sRGB integer values which are (43, 43, 43) so that you can copy/paste values between applications etc as Photoshop (and rest of the World) knows that color as (43 43 43) if described in 8bit integers.

Anything describing that color in floating point knows that color as (0.02, 0.02, 0.02). 
(vray, max scene, physical material, new color picker's scene column, etc).

Anything describing that color in 8bit integer sRGB knows that color as (43, 43, 43).
(new color picker, photoshop, your monitor, HTML parsers, new color picker's display column, etc).

It was just the old color picker, during its short lifespan, called that color as (5,5,5).

Hope this helps.

[cuneyt.ozdas]

Ah,
I should also add that there are few other ancient parts of 3ds Max that still call that color as (5,5,5) and they are causing all sorts of problems. We'll clean them up in due time as well. 

[cuneyt.ozdas]

Ah,
I should also add that there are few other ancient parts of 3ds Max that still call that color as (5,5,5) and they are causing all sorts of problems. We'll clean them up in due time as well. 

[open-range]

Cuneyt Ozdas. I understand all that and understood it from when you first explained it. I accept that the new color picker is an excellent and long over due improvement.

Please answer this if possible -

As it is there are spinners that go to zero but using any value below 15 will revert to 0 after close/re-open. Will that be fixed?

Thank you.

[open-range]

Cuneyt Ozdas. I understand all that and understood it from when you first explained it. I accept that the new color picker is an excellent and long over due improvement.

Please answer this if possible -

As it is there are spinners that go to zero but using any value below 15 will revert to 0 after close/re-open. Will that be fixed?

Thank you.

[cuneyt.ozdas]

Of course!
As I said above, we have located and fixed similar quantization issues in maybe hundred other places, this particular one was missed. That particular case is not used internally much but Vray materials heavily use that missed path.

Unfortunately, I'm legally bound, thus can't talk about if it's already fixed or not, nor can discuss the fix/release timings.

Somewhere above Giuseppe already invited users to the beta program, that's the most we can offer in that topic unfortunately.

[cuneyt.ozdas]

Of course!
As I said above, we have located and fixed similar quantization issues in maybe hundred other places, this particular one was missed. That particular case is not used internally much but Vray materials heavily use that missed path.

Unfortunately, I'm legally bound, thus can't talk about if it's already fixed or not, nor can discuss the fix/release timings.

Somewhere above Giuseppe already invited users to the beta program, that's the most we can offer in that topic unfortunately.

[open-range]

OK and thank you! That is very helpful to know.

I believe I could use the new color picker now with the understanding you have provided. However, if this issue is going to be fixed I will wait for that before moving to Max 2024.

Understood that you cannot comment on when the fix will be implemented. Possibly some notice could be sent out or posted to this topic once it's available?

Thanks again for all your help and patience!

[open-range]

OK and thank you! That is very helpful to know.

I believe I could use the new color picker now with the understanding you have provided. However, if this issue is going to be fixed I will wait for that before moving to Max 2024.

Understood that you cannot comment on when the fix will be implemented. Possibly some notice could be sent out or posted to this topic once it's available?

Thanks again for all your help and patience!

[dean_punchard]

Apologies for sounding like a broken record here, but I'm still not confident in how we should be using the new color picker with Vray.

I'm currently using the Corona color picker to get around, but I feel I'm not able to utilize the new color picker (and the greater range of light and dark tones) correctly.

If I use a Physical Material, the new color picker works fine, but with Vray it doesn't.

Chaos are saying it's "not on our side to fix" (https://forums.chaos.com/forum/v-ray-for-3ds-max-forums/v-ray-for-3ds-max-problems/1183061-3ds-max-2...)

Advice please!

[dean_punchard]

Apologies for sounding like a broken record here, but I'm still not confident in how we should be using the new color picker with Vray.

I'm currently using the Corona color picker to get around, but I feel I'm not able to utilize the new color picker (and the greater range of light and dark tones) correctly.

If I use a Physical Material, the new color picker works fine, but with Vray it doesn't.

Chaos are saying it's "not on our side to fix" (https://forums.chaos.com/forum/v-ray-for-3ds-max-forums/v-ray-for-3ds-max-problems/1183061-3ds-max-2...)

Advice please!

[dennis_collin]

Looking around for this fix, is it available yet?

[dennis_collin]

Looking around for this fix, is it available yet?

[darawork]

Hi,

I have been using HEX codes for colours for years. I first started using them in Photoshop, and all Adobe Creative Suite products. It becomes apparent very quickly that I will get different colour values if I rely on slider scale numbers. That is even between Adobes own product titles. Or trying to move from CMYK to RGB and back again. Colour depreciation occurs, Logos fade the more you save down, or back and forth between colour gamuts.

The only safe way I found to transfer colours that keep their closest original tone, is HEX. That said, depending on computer colour spaces, monitor color/colour spaces, spidered calibration, driver versions, software versions, ... Etc... Hex seems to hold up well. More often than not I will be looking at the HEX code copy/paste window in all instances of choosing colour, before any wheel, numbers or slider. Don't even get me started on RAL codes. 🙂

Regards,

[darawork]

Hi,

I have been using HEX codes for colours for years. I first started using them in Photoshop, and all Adobe Creative Suite products. It becomes apparent very quickly that I will get different colour values if I rely on slider scale numbers. That is even between Adobes own product titles. Or trying to move from CMYK to RGB and back again. Colour depreciation occurs, Logos fade the more you save down, or back and forth between colour gamuts.

The only safe way I found to transfer colours that keep their closest original tone, is HEX. That said, depending on computer colour spaces, monitor color/colour spaces, spidered calibration, driver versions, software versions, ... Etc... Hex seems to hold up well. More often than not I will be looking at the HEX code copy/paste window in all instances of choosing colour, before any wheel, numbers or slider. Don't even get me started on RAL codes. 🙂

Regards,

[inafaracutieiT9P25]

Hello, one way or another I think there may be some salvation for artists like me that like the old gamma workflow. So from what i see the following things happen.

1. If you set up your color management to OCIO and tweak the settings gamma2.2/rec to un-tonemapped with the exception of the color picker, which has to be set on RAW. Then it behaves old school. But you got the issue with backwards compatibility where for example a max 2022 scene does not recognize the worflow and hence it will save the file unmannged and you have to enable again the gamma/LUT correction(not saying its a problem since we have to move forward with max versions sooner or later, it worse for those who can't upgrade).

2. If you leave gamma workflow default in max 2024 you can use Corona Color picker.Using corona color picker from version 11 seems to do the trick just fine. It even shows you realtime when switching from Linear or sRGB how the values are converted. - For those who don't know how to change the color picker there is a screenshot, but you have to get corona first, I think the demo version works fine.

Makes me wonder if its a possibility that you guys can add an extra tab for the classical way like Linear does in Corona Color picker, you know, until people get used to the new extra gamut and make the transition to new colorspaces. I know it was crazy when we started using Gamma worfklow back in the days, let alone now with ACES until it becomes the norm or whatever comes next.

For me there is no point in debating this topic as i have found this solution and quite handy and the picker is way better that what 3dsmax has atm. , even with the wider gamut, the amount of options you can input the colors is insane, i had no clue why i did not used this until now, no heart feelings @cuneyt.ozdas 😅

So quick transition everyone

[inafaracutieiT9P25]

Hello, one way or another I think there may be some salvation for artists like me that like the old gamma workflow. So from what i see the following things happen.

1. If you set up your color management to OCIO and tweak the settings gamma2.2/rec to un-tonemapped with the exception of the color picker, which has to be set on RAW. Then it behaves old school. But you got the issue with backwards compatibility where for example a max 2022 scene does not recognize the worflow and hence it will save the file unmannged and you have to enable again the gamma/LUT correction(not saying its a problem since we have to move forward with max versions sooner or later, it worse for those who can't upgrade).

2. If you leave gamma workflow default in max 2024 you can use Corona Color picker.Using corona color picker from version 11 seems to do the trick just fine. It even shows you realtime when switching from Linear or sRGB how the values are converted. - For those who don't know how to change the color picker there is a screenshot, but you have to get corona first, I think the demo version works fine.

Makes me wonder if its a possibility that you guys can add an extra tab for the classical way like Linear does in Corona Color picker, you know, until people get used to the new extra gamut and make the transition to new colorspaces. I know it was crazy when we started using Gamma worfklow back in the days, let alone now with ACES until it becomes the norm or whatever comes next.

For me there is no point in debating this topic as i have found this solution and quite handy and the picker is way better that what 3dsmax has atm. , even with the wider gamut, the amount of options you can input the colors is insane, i had no clue why i did not used this until now, no heart feelings @cuneyt.ozdas 😅

So quick transition everyone

[dean_punchard]

I'm gonna bump this up again, as it seems like nothing is being done to help Vray users 😞

I'm also going to bump the thread in the Chaos forum too.

It just seems like both sides are saying it's the other side that's at fault, and nothing seems to be getting sorted.

Fustrated!

[dean_punchard]

I'm gonna bump this up again, as it seems like nothing is being done to help Vray users 😞

I'm also going to bump the thread in the Chaos forum too.

It just seems like both sides are saying it's the other side that's at fault, and nothing seems to be getting sorted.

Fustrated!

[dean_punchard]

Is there an update or an ETA on this fix to solve the missed path @cuneyt.ozdas ?

[dean_punchard]

Is there an update or an ETA on this fix to solve the missed path @cuneyt.ozdas ?

[dmitriy.shpilevoy]

I believe it's not just Vray, but the color selector still has issues. Some are minor cosmetic problems, other are much more frustrating.

00:00

HEX value is discarded when clicking OK on dialog. Has to be applied with Enter.

Should probably be applied on OK and text field losing focus.

00:19

Can't single-click through RGB all way from 0 to 255.

RGB spinners are getting stuck when single clicking. Can still hold or drag to change it though. Some values will allow to click through them, others won't.

00:28

EyePicker changes color. You can see B growing each time I pick.

00:48

Vertices that supposed to have same color are treated as different.

Changed value of one vertex (V1). Copied HEX from unchanged one(V2). Pasted and applied HEX value of V2 to  V1.

Selecting both shows vertex color as black, meaning it is different. Even though their RGB and HEX are the same. I can only guess their floats in Scene column are different, but I can't see it and don't understand why it should be the case.

01:28

Dragging Value of HSV will irreversibly alter Hue and Saturation. Depending on how you drag it, it can be just distorted color or complete switch to black and white.

[dmitriy.shpilevoy]

I believe it's not just Vray, but the color selector still has issues. Some are minor cosmetic problems, other are much more frustrating.

00:00

HEX value is discarded when clicking OK on dialog. Has to be applied with Enter.

Should probably be applied on OK and text field losing focus.

00:19

Can't single-click through RGB all way from 0 to 255.

RGB spinners are getting stuck when single clicking. Can still hold or drag to change it though. Some values will allow to click through them, others won't.

00:28

EyePicker changes color. You can see B growing each time I pick.

00:48

Vertices that supposed to have same color are treated as different.

Changed value of one vertex (V1). Copied HEX from unchanged one(V2). Pasted and applied HEX value of V2 to  V1.

Selecting both shows vertex color as black, meaning it is different. Even though their RGB and HEX are the same. I can only guess their floats in Scene column are different, but I can't see it and don't understand why it should be the case.

01:28

Dragging Value of HSV will irreversibly alter Hue and Saturation. Depending on how you drag it, it can be just distorted color or complete switch to black and white.

[dean_punchard]

Something else that isn't working -

When using Vray, and using the Corona Color Picker, you can no longer change the colour of the gradient in a Gradient Ramp material node.

Switching back to the default colour picker makes it work again, but it's a bit of a faf changing between the two.

Also, ARE WE ANYWHERE NEARER TO HAVING THIS FIXED??!?!

[dean_punchard]

Something else that isn't working -

When using Vray, and using the Corona Color Picker, you can no longer change the colour of the gradient in a Gradient Ramp material node.

Switching back to the default colour picker makes it work again, but it's a bit of a faf changing between the two.

Also, ARE WE ANYWHERE NEARER TO HAVING THIS FIXED??!?!

[dean_punchard]

Scratch that, it was a Corona issue, and looks like they did a hotfix to get around this.

But I'm still wondering, WHEN WILL THIS BE FIXED PROPERLY?

[dean_punchard]

Scratch that, it was a Corona issue, and looks like they did a hotfix to get around this.

But I'm still wondering, WHEN WILL THIS BE FIXED PROPERLY?

[pixelcanvas]

The color picker doesn't work for selecting or setting an object wire color when Color Management is enabled, the color picked doesn't match the color displayed.
For example and part of the workflow that now is broken for me, when rigging I like to set up bone and controller colors in a way that helps to visually figure things out, to set colors I would put the display mode into flat shade and use the Bone Coloring tools in the Bone Tools panel to either set a single color or a gradient; now this does not work because as mentioned the picked color is different than the source color, so it's not possible to copy a wire color into another object with the color picker. Functionality is 100% lost.
Turning off color management it works but when reenabling color management the colors change so much that rather than helping as a visual aid the colors make things more confusing.
See the example of a bone chain, un Unmanaged mode it's all shades of blue progressing along the chain, in Managed mode the last bone is almost greenish; so even if I set up a logical color scheme for a rig in Unmanaged mode when it is switched to Managed it will be a mess.

In short, the color picker should pick the color that is seen on screen otherwise what is the point?

[pixelcanvas]

The color picker doesn't work for selecting or setting an object wire color when Color Management is enabled, the color picked doesn't match the color displayed.
For example and part of the workflow that now is broken for me, when rigging I like to set up bone and controller colors in a way that helps to visually figure things out, to set colors I would put the display mode into flat shade and use the Bone Coloring tools in the Bone Tools panel to either set a single color or a gradient; now this does not work because as mentioned the picked color is different than the source color, so it's not possible to copy a wire color into another object with the color picker. Functionality is 100% lost.
Turning off color management it works but when reenabling color management the colors change so much that rather than helping as a visual aid the colors make things more confusing.
See the example of a bone chain, un Unmanaged mode it's all shades of blue progressing along the chain, in Managed mode the last bone is almost greenish; so even if I set up a logical color scheme for a rig in Unmanaged mode when it is switched to Managed it will be a mess.

In short, the color picker should pick the color that is seen on screen otherwise what is the point?